Translating "Dzogchenpa"

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:47 pm

Bhusuku wrote:Here you have a tibetan translation tool - type in "rdzogs chen pa" and take a look at the result, then try the same with "rdzogs chen ma"... While Ives Waldo's and the Rangjung Yeshe dictionary know the word "khams mo", none of these dictionaries know the word "rdzogs chen ma".

PS: If you think that neither this dictionary nor Namdrol is a reliable source, try to contact these people.


Thank you, Bhusuku. I know this link and I use it often for Tibetan!
Everything is clear for me now about Namdrol' thesis.
But none can prevent me from using the term Dzogchenma, if I like. Isn't it? :consoling:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:57 pm

Dronma wrote:But none can prevent me from using the term Dzogchenma, if I like. Isn't it? :consoling: [/color]

Of course, you can even make up your own language! ;)
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Pero » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:59 pm

Dronma wrote:
Pero wrote:I think it's a Greek thing because she reminds me of Greg a bit. :D


You know, when some Western people come to our place and see us discussing they think that we are fighting!!!! :rolling:
But we only discuss and exchange knowledge and opinions.... :tongue:

Haha yeah, I actually have many friends that are like that and sometimes I'm like that myself. I suppose it could be a general Balkan thing. :D
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:04 pm

Dronma wrote:
[color=#000080]Adamantine, I never said that I have sufficient knowledge of Tibetan language! That was the reason I asked about this term. For learning.... :namaste:
Then, I already said that I do not want to mess up Tibetan language, either. I respect every language as much as I respect my mother-tongue!


It's not a question of you wanting to "mess up" the Tibetan language.. it's more that you want to change it, as in your statement
Then I shared my thought, even if there is not the term Dzogchenma/mo in old texts, why should not be used as a good sign of tribute towards the Great Dzogchen Dakinis of the 3 times?
Why not? It seems that a few people have already presented this term on the web.


Now, if the languages you communicate in are Greek and English, come up with a unique term for what you want to communicate in those languages, and see if it sticks. But the thing about Tibetan is that it is the language of an ethnicity, --it is not our property just because we want to practice Dharma.. to decide to impose our own moral judgements upon another ethnicity and then begin altering their language is nothing other than cultural imperialism. Language is, as Namdrol points out, fluid and conditioned by usage. It is a remarkable thing that Tibetans in exile are able to continue preserving their language to a moderate degree, and the Tibetans in their native occupied land are fighting hard to prevent their language from being taken away from them altogether... read about this girl Tsering Kyi who just burned herself alive in protest, --not because she felt oppressed by patriarchal Tibetan culture but because China is trying to destroy and remove any trace of Tibetan language and religion: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/world/asia/in-self-immolations-signs-of-new-turmoil-in-tibet.html If you are sincere in your concern about Tibetan language, I would recommend you first learn it fluently, then help teach it and propagate it in exile, and finally get involved politically for Tibetan autonomy until there is no longer a chance the language will be lost from common usage. At that point, once you know many Tibetan scholars and Tibetan women practitioners, ask them if they agree that new gender-specific Dharma terms would be useful.. and go from there. But given the context you are speaking from right now, --someone who is not Tibetan, who doesn't even speak the language, and who seems more concerned with their own myopic gender-politics than the destruction of Tibetan culture and homeland-- it is just hard to take seriously. If you were really concerned about Tibetan women then why don't you start getting to know them and ask what they care about. What are their priorities?




Maybe, English spoken people cannot understand the importance of genders, which are inherent in other languages.
I think most of us here speak multiple languages.
It is inconceivable for Greek words to be without gender!
And this has helped women's liberation? I mean, if so then why could women in Greece not vote until the 1950's, and was the dowry not abolished until the 1980's?

Probably you haven't heard before, but Sanskrit and Greek have common archaic linguistic roots. So, I have my own reasons for searching this subject.
You think women are or were treated better in India than in Tibet? I think you need to freshen up on your history and study of contemporary cultures.

So, Naljorpa and Naljorma exist in Tibetan language, and it is not something I invented myself.
Then, from my Tibetan teachers I know that Tibetan language and alphabet were based upon Sanskrit. So, what is the conflict here?

you think the Tibetans didn't speak to each other after until the 7th century? :rolleye:


About female yoginis and the oppression they had undergone from their patriarchal environment, sorry but it is you who have not studied the subject in depth! They did not choose to stay in the background -as you say! In the contrary, they were beaten to death from fathers and husbands, they had been raped, they had been punished to leave their homeland, their children, and possessions behind... And even their mothers and surrounding women did not support their decision to practise the Dharma!!!


What history are you reading exactly? Certainly there were instances of Tibetan yoginis undergoing hardships of various kinds.. Do you think male yogis didn't undergo hardship or face obstacles?
Have you read the life stories of male yogis? Should we victimize men because Milarepa was manipulated by his mother into becoming a mass-murderer that was bound for the hell realms? Certainly in old-Tibet there was a patriarchal cultural conditioning of sorts. But as people trying to practice Dharma in our own cultural context isn't it more important to focus on the here-and-now, and our own conditions? Are you currently oppressed by men when you are trying to practice the Dharma? Does the lack of a gender-specific term for Dzoghchenpa affect your Dzogchen meditation? If so, I think you might need to consult with your Lama. If the Great Dzogchen Dakinis of the three times cared about such things, don't you think they'd be appearing to great contemporary masters in visions to set them straight? Or are you one of them?
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Pero wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Pero wrote:I think it's a Greek thing because she reminds me of Greg a bit. :D


You know, when some Western people come to our place and see us discussing they think that we are fighting!!!! :rolling:
But we only discuss and exchange knowledge and opinions.... :tongue:

Haha yeah, I actually have many friends that are like that and sometimes I'm like that myself. I suppose it could be a general Balkan thing. :D


Southern Italians also have this a lot!!! :D
Where are you from?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:16 pm

Bhusuku wrote:
Dronma wrote:But none can prevent me from using the term Dzogchenma, if I like. Isn't it? :consoling: [/color]

Of course, you can even make up your own language! ;)


Thank you, pa! I appreciate your permission a lot.... :bow:
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Pero » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:47 pm

Dronma wrote:
Pero wrote:
Dronma wrote:You know, when some Western people come to our place and see us discussing they think that we are fighting!!!! :rolling:
But we only discuss and exchange knowledge and opinions.... :tongue:

Haha yeah, I actually have many friends that are like that and sometimes I'm like that myself. I suppose it could be a general Balkan thing. :D


Southern Italians also have this a lot!!! :D
Where are you from?

Slovenia. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:49 pm

Adamantine, you sound like being in delirium!
The issue has already been solved and everybody is relaxed here!
If you like, please read the previous posts.
Your attacks are personally against me. You give me advices that I never asked etc.
I never insulted you, because I have nothing against you. I know nobody personally from Dharma Wheel.
The only thing I know for you is your nickname "Adamantine" which in fact is female, like Sönam said yesterday.
According to my language and some others which have genders, Adamantine indicates the female gender, Adamantinos the male, and Adamantino is the neutral. :applause:
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:50 pm

Pero wrote:Slovenia. :smile:


:twothumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:16 pm

Dronma wrote:Adamantine, you sound like being in delirium!


If the sounds in your own mind as you read this text are ones of delirium, it must be you who is delirious!
The issue has already been solved and everybody is relaxed here!

Yes, the issue is solved, people here think you are wacky and have given you permission to invent your own language. Of course, you never needed permission to invent your own language. But your initial inquiry was about trying to "correct" the functioning language of another ethnicity, -which as I said stinks of cultural imperialism.
If you like, please read the previous posts.
I read them all, sadly.
Your attacks are personally against me.
I leveled no personal attacks against you at all. Where do you see a personal attack?
You give me advices that I never asked etc.
No, I only suggested that you seek advice from your teacher (assuming you have one), if linguistic issues concerning a language you don't speak is distracting you from actually practicing meditation. (The part about learning Tibetan was a suggestion, hardly advice)
I never insulted you, because I have nothing against you.
I never implied I'd thought you'd insulted me, nor have I leveled any insults at you.. I don't know why you wouldn't actually respond to any of the valid points which I've taken time to communicate to you though.
I know nobody personally from Dharma Wheel.
We all know each other in the sense that we are having a conversation, --or trying to.
The only thing I know for you is your nickname "Adamantine" which in fact is female, like Sönam said yesterday.
According to my language and some others which have genders, Adamantine indicates the female gender, Adamantinos the male, and Adamantino is the neutral. :applause:


Actually, it is a word, as you must know-- which in English is defined as
"1
: made of or having the quality of adamant
2
: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>
3
: resembling the diamond in hardness or luster"


And as such is often used in English translations of Tibetan or Sanskrit to refer to the word Dorje or Vajra-- which as you may know is usually associated with the masculine energy, and the phallus.

But I don't particularly care so much, as ultimately we are all beyond gender.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:32 pm

Adamantine wrote:Actually, it is a word, as you must know-- which in English is defined as
"1
: made of or having the quality of adamant
2
: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>
3
: resembling the diamond in hardness or luster"


And as such is often used in English translations of Tibetan or Sanskrit to refer to the word Dorje or Vajra-- which as you may know is usually associated with the masculine energy, and the phallus.

But I don't particularly care so much, as ultimately we are all beyond gender.


Well, the root of adamantine is ancient Greek: adamas.
But we all have both genders inherently.
That's why the balance between feminine and masculine - both inner and outer - qualities is necessary for all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sönam » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:49 pm

Adamantine wrote:Actually, it is a word, as you must know-- which in English is defined as
"1
: made of or having the quality of adamant
2
: rigidly firm : unyielding <adamantine discipline>
3
: resembling the diamond in hardness or luster"


Is not "discipline" feminine? ... in this case adamantine is related to feminine. In french we say adamantin for masculine and adamantine for feminine.
That because we are in the language forum ...

As for talking loud like we would be fighting is also a bit french ...

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:02 pm

Dronma wrote:Well, the root of adamantine is ancient Greek: adamas.


Does that matter?

The roots of ancient Greek are Phoenician / Canaanite dialects.. we could probably keep tracing it back to guttural sounds of early Homo neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens... but is that going to help us practice the Dharma?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:11 pm

Adamantine wrote:The roots of ancient Greek are Phoenician / Canaanite dialects..


No, it is not!!!
But this is out of topic anyway.
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Sönam » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:13 pm

Practicing the dharma does not depend on the kind of activity we do ...

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:20 pm

Sönam wrote:Is not "discipline" feminine? ... in this case adamantine is related to feminine. In french we say adamantin for masculine and adamantine for feminine.
That because we are in the language forum ...


Yes, "discipline" is feminine too in Greek.
I know also a little French, so I understood what you were implying humorously to him yesterday.
But Adamantine has no humor at all.... What a pitty...!?! ;)


Sönam wrote:As for talking loud like we would be fighting is also a bit french ...

Sönam


I know... It is the Mediterranean temperament !!! :twothumbsup:
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Stewart » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:47 pm

You're the one who started talking about the Greek roots of words, and you weren't saying it was off topic when you were citing examples to make your point.

From Wikipedia:

The Phoenician phonetic alphabet was adopted and modified by the Greeks probably at the 8th century BC (around the time of the hippoi depictions). This most likely did not come from a single instance but from a culmination of commercial exchange. This means that before the 8th century, there was a relationship between the Greeks and the Phoenicians. It would be very possible in this time that there was also an adoptation of some religious ideas as well. Herodotus cited the city of Thebes (a city in central Greece) as the place of the importation of the alphabet. The legendary Phoenician hero Cadmus is credited with bringing the alphabet to Greece, but it is more plausible that it was brought by Phoenician emigrants to Crete, whence it gradually diffused northwards.
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby padma norbu » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:39 am

Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


I didn't read whole thread, but...

There is Odzer Chenma. Seems like dzogchenma might make some sense, but probably just isn't thought of as very important distinction. I also know nothing about the Tibetan language. Odzer Chenma is just the first thing I thought of.
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Re: Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:56 am

samdrup wrote:You're the one who started talking about the Greek roots of words, and you weren't saying it was off topic when you were citing examples to make your point.

From Wikipedia:

The Phoenician phonetic alphabet was adopted and modified by the Greeks probably at the 8th century BC (around the time of the hippoi depictions). This most likely did not come from a single instance but from a culmination of commercial exchange. This means that before the 8th century, there was a relationship between the Greeks and the Phoenicians. It would be very possible in this time that there was also an adoptation of some religious ideas as well. Herodotus cited the city of Thebes (a city in central Greece) as the place of the importation of the alphabet. The legendary Phoenician hero Cadmus is credited with bringing the alphabet to Greece, but it is more plausible that it was brought by Phoenician emigrants to Crete, whence it gradually diffused northwards.


This is a theory that some people like to develop towards one historical direction - maybe for their own benefits.
Homer was mentioning shortly Phoenicians in his epic poems (Iliad and Odyssey) around the 8th century BC.
Exchanges between civilizations are happening all the time! And this is normal.
As I said before, Greek and Sanskrit have common archaic linguistic roots and that was something relevant with our topic here, because of the -pa and -ma suffixes and the influence of the Sanskrit to the Tibetan language.
I see no reason to develop now the topic towards Phoenicians. :geek:
However any new contribution about the mystery of "Dzogchenpa VS Dzogchenma" is welcome! :tongue:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:15 am

Dronma wrote:
Adamantine wrote:The roots of ancient Greek are Phoenician / Canaanite dialects..


No, it is not!!!
But this is out of topic anyway.



hahaha well that's what wiki says-- and wiki is your chosen infallible source for Tibetan linguistic issues, so you should believe what it says about Ancient Greek too! :tongue:

Anyway, regardless of the various fallacies one can find on wikipedia, - it is a quite universally accepted account that the Greek alphabet was adopted from the Phoenicians, albeit modified slightly. And yes, it is off topic, --but you are the one started discussing the gender and etymology of my moniker, and it's supposed ancient Greek origins. . .
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