Translating "Dzogchenpa"

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Translating "Dzogchenpa"

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:33 pm

I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Kilaya. » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:45 pm

Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


Dzogchenma, this is priceless!
:rolling:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Kilaya. wrote:
Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


Dzogchenma, this is priceless!
:rolling:


Why?
Like Naljorpa and Naljorma. It is used very much in Tibetan.
Anyway, I am expecting a serious reply from someone who really knows Tibetan well.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby pensum » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:06 pm

Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


the -pa is a suffix merely indicating a noun, so dzogchenpa is "a man who practices or follows dzogchen," just like Nyingmapa is a follower of Nyingma, while Bonpo is a follower of Bon, Khampa indicates a man from Kham, and kham mo is a woman from Kham. i'll let Namdrol answer in regards to whether dzogchenmo is a valid form for a female practitioner or not, but i would suspect it is.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:18 pm

pensum wrote:
Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


the -pa is a suffix merely indicating a noun, so dzogchenpa is "a man who practices or follows dzogchen," just like Nyingmapa is a follower of Nyingma, while Bonpo is a follower of Bon, Khampa indicates a man from Kham, and kham mo is a woman from Kham. i'll let Namdrol answer in regards to whether dzogchenmo is a valid form for a female practitioner or not, but i would suspect it is.


Thank you very much, pensum! :smile:
I found some references searching through Google, but I do not know if they are valid, since they come from Westerners.
Maybe I can mention that the term "Dzogchenma" exists in Aro-encyclopaedia:

http://aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text/h/heart_jewel_ar_eng.php

"Padmasambhava said:
My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour.
So one should not lurch and stagger through life claiming to be a Dzogchenpa or a Dzogchenma when all the while one may be little more than a flatulent oaf, rank with greed, and stinking of stale beer."

In any case, I cannot imagine Mandarava as a Dzogchenpa! :D
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzoki » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:47 am

Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


Dzogchenpa is a practitioner of dzogchen, most of the people, who openly claim to be dzogchenpas are not. To only apply a technique from a dzogchen teachings is not equal to the practice of dzogchen. If one is in the state of rigpa, then even practice like prostrations is a dzogchen practice, if one is not, then even a practice like thogal is not a dzogchen practice.
Dzogchen is a secret practice, so serious practitioners keep it secret and don´t go around claiming that they are dzogchenpas.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:18 am

dzoki wrote:
Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


Dzogchenpa is a practitioner of dzogchen, most of the people, who openly claim to be dzogchenpas are not. To only apply a technique from a dzogchen teachings is not equal to the practice of dzogchen. If one is in the state of rigpa, then even practice like prostrations is a dzogchen practice, if one is not, then even a practice like thogal is not a dzogchen practice.
Dzogchen is a secret practice, so serious practitioners keep it secret and don´t go around claiming that they are dzogchenpas.


Thank you, dzoki. :smile:
I agree with you, and to be honest I am - at least - very sceptical with people who are claiming openly that they are dzogchenpas...
Unless if someone is like my teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu! :namaste:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:31 pm

Dronma wrote:
pensum wrote:
Dronma wrote:I have a question about the term "Dzogchenpa".
My personal understanding is that it means "someone who has high realization of Dzogchen".
But often I hear people call themselves or their friends "Dzogchenpa", which is giving the meaning "someone who practises - more or less - Dzogchen".
What is the traditional meaning in Tibetan?
Then, the ending -pa indicates masculine gender. Is there also an equivalent ending -ma for females, for example "Dzogchenma"?


the -pa is a suffix merely indicating a noun, so dzogchenpa is "a man who practices or follows dzogchen," just like Nyingmapa is a follower of Nyingma, while Bonpo is a follower of Bon, Khampa indicates a man from Kham, and kham mo is a woman from Kham. i'll let Namdrol answer in regards to whether dzogchenmo is a valid form for a female practitioner or not, but i would suspect it is.


Thank you very much, pensum! :smile:
I found some references searching through Google, but I do not know if they are valid, since they come from Westerners.
Maybe I can mention that the term "Dzogchenma" exists in Aro-encyclopaedia:

http://aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/text/h/heart_jewel_ar_eng.php

"Padmasambhava said:
My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour.
So one should not lurch and stagger through life claiming to be a Dzogchenpa or a Dzogchenma when all the while one may be little more than a flatulent oaf, rank with greed, and stinking of stale beer."

In any case, I cannot imagine Mandarava as a Dzogchenpa! :D


I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:20 pm

Dronma wrote:I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?

Perhaps there isn't one. The -pa doesn't necessarily indicate the male gender wherever you see it. In this case I think it simply means someone who is in the state of dzogchen.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:52 pm

Pero wrote:
Dronma wrote:I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?

Perhaps there isn't one. The -pa doesn't necessarily indicate the male gender wherever you see it. In this case I think it simply means someone who is in the state of dzogchen.


I think that -pa indicates the gender.
I'd like a response from someone who really knows. :smile:
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~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:54 am

Dronma wrote:
Pero wrote:
Dronma wrote:I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?

Perhaps there isn't one. The -pa doesn't necessarily indicate the male gender wherever you see it. In this case I think it simply means someone who is in the state of dzogchen.


I think that -pa indicates the gender.
I'd like a response from someone who really knows. :smile:


The natural state is genderless! I remember specifically being taught not to identify with any moniker related to dzogchen. It's not really of that nature, not a religion or philosophy or something that one can say "I am this". I remember there used to be times where I'd ask my mentor a question and he'd look at me and ask "are you dzogchen??!" and I'd reply "no" and his eyes would light up and he'd laugh and say "very good". But he refers to my son as a dzogchenpa, I think its more a term of endearment one refers to another with, not really a self appointed title to identify with. I also recall rinpoche touching on this in a retreat a long time ago.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:00 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
Dronma wrote:I think that -pa indicates the gender.
I'd like a response from someone who really knows. :smile:


The natural state is genderless! I remember specifically being taught not to identify with any moniker related to dzogchen. It's not really of that nature, not a religion or philosophy or something that one can say "I am this". I remember there used to be times where I'd ask my mentor a question and he'd look at me and ask "are you dzogchen??!" and I'd reply "no" and his eyes would light up and he'd laugh and say "very good". But he refers to my son as a dzogchenpa, I think its more a term of endearment one refers to another with, not really a self appointed title to identify with. I also recall rinpoche touching on this in a retreat a long time ago.


Thank you, asunthatneversets, for your reply!
But I did not ask for teaching upon the state of Dzogchen! ;)
I have already an exceptional teacher!!!
I asked about the Tibetan language!
So, like Naljorpa and Naljorma, Nagpa and Nagma, it might be Dzogchenpa and Dzogchenma or Dzogchenmo - as pensum suggested.
If somebody has accurate knowledge of this, I'd appreciate a lot an accurate grammatical response!
:smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Norwegian » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:17 am

According to Namdrol from some posts on defunct e-sangha forum, back in 2006, with regards to ngakpa/ngakma:

"It is the same with the so-called "ngagmas"-- in reality, no such term exists in Tibetan."

"The main reason is that there is no "mantrinii" in Sanskrit [i.e. snags pa = mantrin]. The term "yoginii" however does exist in sanskrit, and this is why in Tibetan texts one will see "sngags pa dang rnal 'byor ma..." but never in all my years of reading Tibetan books have I ever seen the term "sngags ma"."

"[...]female practitioners are generally referred to as yoginiis, rnal 'byor ma, in the various texts that where I have encountered women. Important women practitioners are frequently called "Jomo" which is the feminine equivalent of Jowo, for example Jomo Menmo, Guru Chowang's companion. Another common term for female yoginins is "Machig"-- of whom there are several, like the famed Machig Zhama of one of the Lamdre lineages"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:29 am

Dronma wrote:
Pero wrote:
Dronma wrote:I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?

Perhaps there isn't one. The -pa doesn't necessarily indicate the male gender wherever you see it. In this case I think it simply means someone who is in the state of dzogchen.


I think that -pa indicates the gender.
I'd like a response from someone who really knows. :smile:



པ་is a nominalizer. It does not necessarily indicate gender. For example, all women from Eastern Tibet are Khampas, there is no term "Khamma" for eastern Tibetan women.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Malcolm » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:31 am

Dronma wrote:I asked about the Tibetan language!
So, like Naljorpa and Naljorma, Nagpa and Nagma, it might be Dzogchenpa and Dzogchenma or Dzogchenmo - as pensum suggested.
If somebody has accurate knowledge of this, I'd appreciate a lot an accurate grammatical response! [/color] :smile:


"sngags ma" is a western neologism that has been adopted by Tibetans.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Dronma wrote:I asked about the Tibetan language!
So, like Naljorpa and Naljorma, Nagpa and Nagma, it might be Dzogchenpa and Dzogchenma or Dzogchenmo - as pensum suggested.
If somebody has accurate knowledge of this, I'd appreciate a lot an accurate grammatical response! [/color] :smile:


"sngags ma" is a western neologism that has been adopted by Tibetans.


Thank you, Namdrol!
If Tibetans had adopted the neologism about "sngags ma", I guess that it was not wrong grammatically.
So, maybe Dzogchenma or Dzogchenmo do not exist in old Tibetan texts. Anyway the majority of Dzogchen practitioners were male and all the scriptures have been written by them. The few Dzogchen Yoginis always preferred to keep a low profile as practitioners or teachers. And I don't know if they have ever left behind written evidence of their realization.
So, for clearing up my query, can we say - for example - that Ayu Khandro was a Dzopgchenma?
Is it correct from the point of Tibetan language?
Since the words Naljorpa and Naljorma indicate that exist suffixes which connect with the gender. Isn't it?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Norwegian » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:31 pm

Why can't we just say that Ayu Khandro was a Dzogchenpa? Also, see below:

Dronma:
I'd like to bring this question to the surface of the board again, since it was buried by many posts.
So, from the replies it seems that "Dzogchenpa" is a qualified, serious practitioner of Dzogchen. Isn't it?
Then, what is the term for the female Dzogchen practitioner?
Dzogchenmo or Dzogchenma?

Pero:
Perhaps there isn't one. The -pa doesn't necessarily indicate the male gender wherever you see it. In this case I think it simply means someone who is in the state of dzogchen.

Dronma:
I think that -pa indicates the gender.
I'd like a response from someone who really knows. :)



Namdrol:
པ་is a nominalizer. It does not necessarily indicate gender. For example, all women from Eastern Tibet are Khampas, there is no term "Khamma" for eastern Tibetan women.



PS: Chatral Rinpoche holds the lineage of Sera Khandro's termas:

http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biograph ... ngmo/10083
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sera_Khandro
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Norwegian wrote:Why can't we just say that Ayu Khandro was a Dzogchenpa?


For the same reason that Tibetans adopted for females the word "sngags ma"?
Or because they say Naljorma - instead of Naljorpa - when they talk about female yoginis? ;)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:55 pm

Norwegian wrote:PS: Chatral Rinpoche holds the lineage of Sera Khandro's termas:

http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biograph ... ngmo/10083
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sera_Khandro


Also, thank you very much for the links about Sera Khandro Kunzang Dekyong Wangmo! :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Adamantine » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:27 am

Dronma wrote:
Norwegian wrote:Why can't we just say that Ayu Khandro was a Dzogchenpa?


For the same reason that Tibetans adopted for females the word "sngags ma"?


I hardly think this is widespread, it's probably just a few Tibetans appeasing a few stubborn westerners..

Or because they say Naljorma - instead of Naljorpa - when they talk about female yoginis? ;)


I thought this was explained already, that this was only because the term "yogini" was used in Sanskrit, whereas mantrini was not.. You see, the Tibetans honored the conventions of Sanskrit since they respected it as the Dharma source-code from which they downloaded great treasuries of knowledge..

I think they must have figured if yogini was good enough of a gender-specific term for all the great adepts of India, why try to mess around and invent a bunch of new conventions? But us english-speakers are so arrogant it's not even enough for us to add new gender-specific dharma words in English to accommodate our desire for specificity- we want to start changing the Tibetan language itself, --at the same time the Chinese are trying their best to eradicate it altogether. . . Why can't we just respect it as is and try to preserve it?

It was already stated that the "pa" suffix doesn't necessarily indicate gender, so what's the problem with it?

Should we start changing the English language too for you? Let's not say "human" anymore. We need "human", and "humwoman" both. Or should we change "woman" too because man is in there? Hmmmmmnnnn maybe "hugirl"? And we can change female to "fegirl" too so "male" isn't included either? What do you think, how far should we go with this?
You know, as a man I am starting to get insecure now because "man" includes "ma", and makes me feel a little emasculated.. maybe we should have a less feminine word for a male than man? :rolleye:
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