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Samatha v. vipassana? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Samatha v. vipassana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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altar
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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby altar » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:02 pm

Mmm Jack something doesn't seem right there and I think it is that one is not merely trying to see concepts as not-self and transient. One is actually trying to see the thought-process in which the thought or image of ox-cart arises. However I've jumped into the thread late so I apologize if I'm missing something.

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:19 pm

I'm surprised that some people would say the concepts don't have the three characteristics. (Or did I read that wrong? Is it something more like the three characteristics don't apply to them?) I personally think that the concepts are among the easiest to see the anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

The concepts obviously change (i.e., someone understands them in a different way than I do). They're obviously dukkha (there are disagreements). They're obviously anatta (I didn't think up these concepts by myself).

One of the hardest things for me to see the characteristics (if I'm really honest with myself) would be the consciousness (formed by the aggregates). Though I can sometimes see the lapses (absentmindedness, the short period between being awake and the dreaming, etc.); and that this consciousness is what makes me notice the dukkha; it's still difficult for me to see the anatta (I still see it as a self, this awareness seems unique to myself, it seems singular, even though I keep on reading stuff that it's not, etc.)

Is this discussion more like a case of what would be the most useful way of applying these three characteristics? Like, the insights that you would gain from analyzing just the concepts would be considered weak, compared to analyzing the very aggregates themselves, because the latter would be more difficult to penetrate?

If that's so, then I think it makes a lot of sense... more than just saying that the concepts don't have the three characteristics (or that it doesn't apply, period), because that obviously isn't true. :tongue:

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby Jack » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:20 pm


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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:45 pm


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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:57 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:33 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:49 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:51 pm

Thanks for the post, MikeNZ. That clears it up quite a bit for me.

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:05 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:12 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:14 am

Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:17 am


pt1
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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby pt1 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:08 am


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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:48 am


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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:02 am


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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:30 pm

I agree with Goeff on this. Nimitta in my experience is mental phenomena- complete with the three characteristics.

How anapanasati differs on whether it is samatha or vipassana is whether the practitoner is just focused on the content of the experience in a fairly unintelligent manner (without sampajanna) or focused on the structure/process which holds that content being aware of anicca, dukkha, or anatta qualities of the breath..

I might add: Abhidhamma is a cancer on the saddhamma.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby pt1 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:05 am

Hi Geoff and RYB,

Thanks for your replies. Indeed, I'm familiar with your views on jhana, abhi&commentaries, etc, having been following your posts on various boards over the last few years. Some of your views are difficult to agree with, but I'm entertaining the idea that it might be just the terminology barrier, which is why I was trying to form my question in a practical way that would avoid getting bogged down in rivaling terminology. I obviously failed, so here's another attempt:

For jhana (please assume it's the jhana kind you espouse - i.e. not visuddhimagga style), I guess we'd agree there needs to be samma samadhi. So, if samma samadhi is there, that would mean that mindfulness, and in particular, wisdom (as in "non-ignorance" mentioned in the suttas, as opposed to ignorance) are operative. If wisdom is indeed operative, then my confusion is as follows:
1. Wisdom is essentially supposed to understnad/see the anicca, anatta, etc, characteristics in anything that arises and falls.
2. Yet, the whole idea of one-pointedness in jhana is that attention is fixed on one object only for an extended period of time (irrespective whether that's 2 hours, or just 2 seconds before vipassana starts inside jhana as you say)
3. So, if wisdom is present in jhana, and yet it doesn't understand/see that the object is in fact anicca (arising and falling on multiple occasions during those 2 seconds or 2 hours), how would you explain why it doesn't see anicca?

In addition, RYB, you seems to be saying that this might be because sampajana isn't present in samatha and/or jhana, is that right? I wonder though, if there's no sampajana, how can it be samma samadhi in the first place?

Thanks
Best wishes

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Re: Samatha v. vipassana?

Postby pt1 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:39 am



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