若提碎摩 = ????

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若提碎摩 = ????

Postby cdpatton » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:38 am

我昔
T04n0201_p0258c16║曾聞,有婆羅門名憍尸迦,善知僧佉論、衛
T04n0201_p0258c17║世師論、若提碎摩論,如是等論解了分別。

Translating a text by Kumarajiva, I've run into a transliteration of what I would assume is a school of ancient Indian philosophy, but none that I can match up with the Chinese pronunciations. I was wondering if anyone has a better reference or knowledge than mine who could resolve the mystery. The passage above mentions a brahmana learned in the Samkyha, Vaisesika, and [mystery school]. Chinese = 若提碎摩. 若提 often equals Jnati, but otherwise I'm stumped.

Charlie.
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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:11 am

cdpatton wrote:我昔
T04n0201_p0258c16║曾聞,有婆羅門名憍尸迦,善知僧佉論、衛
T04n0201_p0258c17║世師論、若提碎摩論,如是等論解了分別。

Translating a text by Kumarajiva, I've run into a transliteration of what I would assume is a school of ancient Indian philosophy, but none that I can match up with the Chinese pronunciations. I was wondering if anyone has a better reference or knowledge than mine who could resolve the mystery. The passage above mentions a brahmana learned in the Samkyha, Vaisesika, and [mystery school]. Chinese = 若提碎摩. 若提 often equals Jnati, but otherwise I'm stumped.

Charlie.



Maybe Nyāya?
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:04 am

《大莊嚴論經》卷1:「善知僧佉論衛世師論若提碎摩論」(CBETA, T04, no. 201, p. 258, c16-17)

僧佉 is sāṃkhya.

衛世師論 is vaiśeṣika

若提碎摩論 is curious. Logically it would be nyāya as Namdrol suggests.

The character 若 has an ancient Japanese on-yomi reading of nya, such as in 般若 han'nya, which is preserved Chinese reading from the Sui-Tang.

Looking at the on-yomi readings for this might be helpful (they preserve the old pronunciation of characters used to transliterate Sanskrit better than modern Mandarin does).

jyaku / nya
tei / chou / dai
sai
mo / ma

碎摩 looks more like a verb, to smash and scatter something -- otherwise "refute"? Like 破.

I wonder if this isn't a translation for something like nyāya tarka-vidyā ?

"Tarka" meaning the following:

(H2) tarka [p= 439,3] [L=83342] m. conjecture MBh. &c
[L=83343] reasoning , speculation , inquiry Kat2hUp. ii , 9 Pa1rGr2. ii , 6 , 5 Gaut. Mn. xii , 106 MBh. &c
[L=83344] doubt W.
[L=83345] system or doctrine founded on speculation or reasoning , philosophical system (esp. the nyāya system , but applicable also to any of the six darśana q.v.) BhP. ii , vii f. Prab. Vop. Caran2. Madhus.


The 提 character might have had a "-k" consonant ending in the fifth century.

This is the reconstructed reading according to Baxter-Sagart. See page 127. http://crlao.ehess.fr/docannexe.php?id=1202

提 tí dej (MC) (d- + -ej A) (MC) *dˤe {*[d]ˤe} (OC) lift, grasp


The middle Chinese reading was dej. The old Chinese reading might not be so important because that's many centuries prior to when Kumarajiva was alive.

So do you think 提 could be for tarka given that 若 is probably nyāya and that 碎摩 is not a transliteration, but a Chinese translation meaning "debate"?

This is just my speculation, but what do you think?
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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:54 am

Mahāvīra is also called Jñāti 若提.

See DDB:

Or simply Nirgrantha. In Pali, Nigaṇṭha-nātaputta (Vardhamāna), transliterated in Chinese fully as 尼乾陀若提子. The founder of the Jain sect who is noted in Buddhist scriptures as one of the leaders of the major non-Buddhist belief systems 六師外道 at the time of Śākyamuni. He was born in the fifth century BCE, and was known as Jina (the Victor) and Mahāvīra (the Great Hero). They practiced as naked mendicants, covering themselves with ashes, attempting to free themselves from all ties. Mahāvīra (also called Jñāti 若提 after his family) teaching had a number of points in common with Buddhism, including denial of the authority of the Vedas and the disapproval of killing. He was nonetheless an opponent of Śākyamuni, since his doctrines were determinist; with everything being subject to fate, no religious practices could change one's lot. Since one branch of the sect practiced nudity, it is sometimes also known as the Nudist Heresy 裸形外道 or Shameless Heresy 無慚外道 (Skt. ājīvaka, nirgrantha). References to the Nirgranthas in indigenous East Asian works do not necessarily refer specifically to this sect, but also serve as a general reference to non-Buddhist Indian religious sects. Translated into Chinese as 離繋, 不繋, 無結, and alternatively transliterated as 尼健; 尼乾,尼乾陀; 尼虔, 尼乾陀若提子, 若提子. 〔倶舍論 T 1559.29.198c28 〕 (Skt. , ) [cmuller; source(s): JEBD, Hirakawa]
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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby cdpatton » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:28 pm

Huseng wrote:《大莊嚴論經》卷1:「善知僧佉論衛世師論若提碎摩論」(CBETA, T04, no. 201, p. 258, c16-17)

僧佉 is sāṃkhya.

衛世師論 is vaiśeṣika

若提碎摩論 is curious. Logically it would be nyāya as Namdrol suggests.

The character 若 has an ancient Japanese on-yomi reading of nya, such as in 般若 han'nya, which is preserved Chinese reading from the Sui-Tang.

Looking at the on-yomi readings for this might be helpful (they preserve the old pronunciation of characters used to transliterate Sanskrit better than modern Mandarin does).

jyaku / nya
tei / chou / dai
sai
mo / ma

碎摩 looks more like a verb, to smash and scatter something -- otherwise "refute"? Like 破.

I wonder if this isn't a translation for something like nyāya tarka-vidyā ?

"Tarka" meaning the following:

(H2) tarka [p= 439,3] [L=83342] m. conjecture MBh. &c
[L=83343] reasoning , speculation , inquiry Kat2hUp. ii , 9 Pa1rGr2. ii , 6 , 5 Gaut. Mn. xii , 106 MBh. &c
[L=83344] doubt W.
[L=83345] system or doctrine founded on speculation or reasoning , philosophical system (esp. the nyāya system , but applicable also to any of the six darśana q.v.) BhP. ii , vii f. Prab. Vop. Caran2. Madhus.


The 提 character might have had a "-k" consonant ending in the fifth century.

This is the reconstructed reading according to Baxter-Sagart. See page 127. http://crlao.ehess.fr/docannexe.php?id=1202

提 tí dej (MC) (d- + -ej A) (MC) *dˤe {*[d]ˤe} (OC) lift, grasp


The middle Chinese reading was dej. The old Chinese reading might not be so important because that's many centuries prior to when Kumarajiva was alive.

So do you think 提 could be for tarka given that 若 is probably nyāya and that 碎摩 is not a transliteration, but a Chinese translation meaning "debate"?

This is just my speculation, but what do you think?


Thanks for the pronunciation study! I am thinking one of two possibilities here: 1. That 碎摩 is not a transliteration since 碎 is hardly ever used as a transliteration or 2. that 碎 is a copyist error. The term doesn't occur anywhere else that I can find.

I discounted the possibility that this is a reference to the Jains because Kumarajiva would have certainly used a common transliteration for Nigrantha.

The context of this story makes Nyaya the logical choice. The story tells of a brahmana discovering a Buddhist sutra on dependent origination, realizing the superior logic to it, and then arguing with his friends. In the process he refutes the logical arguments found in the Samkhya and Vaisesika philosophies. But only those two are treated, not this third, during the narrative. So we don't get any clues about the identity of 若提碎摩 through description of their arguments either. These little mystery transliterations are quite time consuming sometimes. I think I will settle on Nyaya and explain the obscurity in a footnote.

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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:42 pm

cdpatton wrote:The story tells of a brahmana discovering a Buddhist sutra on dependent origination, realizing the superior logic to it, and then arguing with his friends. In the process he refutes the logical arguments found in the Samkhya and Vaisesika philosophies. But only those two are treated, not this third, during the narrative. So we don't get any clues about the identity of 若提碎摩 through description of their arguments either. These little mystery transliterations are quite time consuming sometimes. I think I will settle on Nyaya and explain the obscurity in a footnote.



Nyāya and Vaiśeṣika are frequently lumped together as if they are one school.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Indrajala » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:26 pm

cdpatton wrote:Thanks for the pronunciation study! I am thinking one of two possibilities here: 1. That 碎摩 is not a transliteration since 碎 is hardly ever used as a transliteration or 2. that 碎 is a copyist error. The term doesn't occur anywhere else that I can find.

I discounted the possibility that this is a reference to the Jains because Kumarajiva would have certainly used a common transliteration for Nigrantha.




Kumarajiva does use the term 尼乾陀 in the same text, but not with 若提.

《大莊嚴論經》卷13:「富羅那弟子尸利毱多者。是樹提伽姉夫。時樹提伽父先是尼乾陀弟子。」(CBETA, T04, no. 201, p. 327, c13-14)


Also see:

《維摩詰所說經》卷1〈3 弟子品〉:「彼外道六師:富蘭那迦葉、末伽梨拘賒梨子、刪闍夜毘羅胝子、阿耆多翅舍欽婆羅、迦羅鳩馱迦旃延、尼犍陀若提子,是汝之師。」(CBETA, T14, no. 475, p. 540, b29-c3)

尼犍陀若提子 is Nirgrantha-jñāniputra.

Still, there is the possibility 若提 is as I speculated above. Though perhaps 若提 is Jñāti, i.e., Mahāvīra. If within the context of the text the opponent's arguments could be seen this would solve the problem.


The context of this story makes Nyaya the logical choice. The story tells of a brahmana discovering a Buddhist sutra on dependent origination, realizing the superior logic to it, and then arguing with his friends. In the process he refutes the logical arguments found in the Samkhya and Vaisesika philosophies. But only those two are treated, not this third, during the narrative. So we don't get any clues about the identity of 若提碎摩 through description of their arguments either. These little mystery transliterations are quite time consuming sometimes. I think I will settle on Nyaya and explain the obscurity in a footnote.


I'd say it mention it might be Jñāti, i.e., Mahāvīra, too.
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Re: 若提碎摩 = ????

Postby Huifeng » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:27 am

cdpatton wrote:我昔
T04n0201_p0258c16║曾聞,有婆羅門名憍尸迦,善知僧佉論、衛
T04n0201_p0258c17║世師論、若提碎摩論,如是等論解了分別。

Translating a text by Kumarajiva, I've run into a transliteration of what I would assume is a school of ancient Indian philosophy, but none that I can match up with the Chinese pronunciations. I was wondering if anyone has a better reference or knowledge than mine who could resolve the mystery. The passage above mentions a brahmana learned in the Samkyha, Vaisesika, and [mystery school]. Chinese = 若提碎摩. 若提 often equals Jnati, but otherwise I'm stumped.

Charlie.


Hi Charlie,

Adding to some of the comments from Jeff above (which it seems he posted after chatting with me for half an hour), first of all, it's not 100% clear.
However, the 若提 part could very easily be Jñāti or just ñāti, which is not Mahāvīra himself, but the name for his system of thought, his disciples the Jainas.
The 碎摩 (or similar, eg. 碎磨) doesn't appear as any sort of transliteration, but may be a translation as suspected above.
The Jainas did have a system of thought called Saptbhangi, a "Seven[fold] Analysis", which may match 碎摩 due to it's breakdown analysis style (particularly if we use 碎磨 rather than 碎摩).
This is basically the same as the more common name Syādvāda, the "Theory of Existents", where there are seven ways in which something can exist. Also known as Anekāntavāda.
The fact that the last two are known as vāda could easily match up with why it's called a 論, theory.
That would be my educated guess.

~~ Huifeng
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