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Seeing Rise and Fall - Dhamma Wheel

Seeing Rise and Fall

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Alex123
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Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:40 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Ben
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Location: kanamaluka

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:10 am

Hi Alex

Just a question...
When you meditate, what is it that you are actually doing? What is it you are attending to?
I hope your answer will help me to answer you.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Alex123
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:31 am

Hello Ben, all,

Well we could say that the present mentality&materiality = the cessation of past mentality&materiality. When mentality&materiality ceases, the next moment there is momentary birth of new mentality&materiality.

So when a moment falls away (no longer is), the new moment is "born".


With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Ben
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Location: kanamaluka

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:44 am

Hi Alex

I'm not sure that I am understanding you.
Firstly, I'm not sure whether your question relates to practice or whether it is in relation to understanding a point on doctrine.

Certainly the aggregates are rising and falling constantly. One way to look at it is that the aggregates are conglomerations of elemennts (dhatu) constantly evanescing, or particles oscillating and vibrating (becoming - unbecoming, becoming - unbecoming seemingly endlessly)
Nama and rupa are in a constant state of flux - change. All phenomena are conditioned, as those conditions change, so do the phenomena that depend on those conditions.

If I get time tonight I'll look at some references for you.

With regards to your original question - keep in mind that for many practitioners they are observing the changing nature of the phenomena that they are observing. For me, it is the anicca characteristic of vedana (sensation). In clearly comprehending the changing nature of vedana (or other phenomena), one directly observes "rise and fall".
I hope that helps.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:37 am

Hi Alex,

If you mean the 4th vipassnana nana and if you are doing something related to Sayadaw Mahasi's approach then his little book on The Progress of Insight: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html may be helpful. Here is the Arising and Passing Away section: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising

Daniel Ingram's collection of ways that stage may be described might also be helpful:
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... ing%20Away
I would not take what Daniel says as authoritative, but if you read that page it actually quite similar to what Sayadaw Mahasi describes, but in more everyday language, and with some terminology from other spiritual paths thrown into the mix.

Metta
Mike

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Alex123
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:49 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Freawaru
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby Freawaru » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:02 pm


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mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:35 pm


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effort
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Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby effort » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:24 pm

arising and passing away is easy to be observed for some objects like thoughts and physical sensation in some extend, but when even we are not aware of the process of aggregates like perception ( we know they are happening but cant observe them ) noticing arising and passing away of them must be huge step.
by my understanding you have to have a good concentration and huge huge work to see arising and passing of aggregates and to be more more advanced ( almost near the goal ) to see arising and passing klapas, right?

rowyourboat
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Location: London, UK

Re: Seeing Rise and Fall

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:15 pm

Hi Alex

The knowledge of arising and passing away (udaya-vyaya nana) is arrived at (if the visuddhimagga is to be believed- and I dont see any reason why not to, in line with Mahasi sayadaw teachings) after passing the insight knowledges of nama-rupa, causality, seeing the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatt) and passing revulsion (nibbida- fear of dissolution etc). Then begins the immature stage of arising and passing away. This is then superseded by vipassana upakilesa (which sounds to me like developments of samadhi, in line with the path), which in turn gives rise to mature knowledge of arising and passing away. Even though these are called 'knowledges' or insights, they may better be termed experiences, as they are stages of experiencing the same meditation object which was present at the start- but in different (more advanced) states of mind.

Revulsion, dispassion and cessation (Nibbida, viraga, nirodha ) are the commonly used terms (especially the latter two) in the suttas to denote these stages. Quick arising of stimuli from the sense based are experienced, along with a sense of not reacting to any happy or sad events in the environment. Equanmity of formations (sankhara upekkha) is another term used for the mature knowledge of arising and passing away. Cessation (nirodha) is a stage where the endings of stimuli are seen more and sometimes people get a deep sense of emptiness of themselves (bits of the body actually feels missing). This then flows into release (of stream entry).

It is best to follow a meditation method like that of Mahasi sayadaw to reach these stages- in that system it is well documented how these are reached. (or Pa Uk for that matter I suppose). As far as I know Ajhan Brahm, Goenka, Bhanthe Gunarathana dont speak of these stages of insight much.

The Buddha recommended reaching the knowledge of arising and passing away for lay people here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta
:anjali:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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