Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Malcolm »

Jikan wrote:Related question that Malcolm is particularly well positioned to address:

in the volume Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, it's claimed that Vasubhandu's cosmology shares a common origin with Bonpo teachings. Is this a plausible claim? If so, does it contradict the claim that it derives from the Sarvastivada school? Or does it follow that the Bonpo tradition may share a common origin with the Sarvastivada school also?
This is because the so called Bonpo Abhidharma, the Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug (revealed and written down by Shenchen Luga http://www.thlib.org/?wiki=/access/wiki ... 0luga.html (996-1035) in 1017) is held by the Bonpos to have been taught by Tonpa Shenrab. Tonpa Shenrab lived much earlier than Vasubandhu and the Buddha. There are some passages in the mDzod phug that are shared with the Kosha, but not very many, actually. But the Meru Cosmology etc., is basically the same. Therefore, the Bonpos claim the Mdzod phug influenced Buddhist cosmology.

Most modern scholars believe that the Mdzod Phug was partially influenced by the Kosha. However, the Mdzod Phug has a great deal of material in it that indicates it was also highly influenced by Dzogchen and so on. The materials in it are rich and have not been studiedvery much. The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.

I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.

Dan Martin has done a lot of interesting analysis of the root text, but not so much on the commentary. Both texts, the root and the commentary were produced/revealed at the same time, in 1017.

M
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by DGA »

Great stuff Malcolm, thanks!
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by deepbluehum »

Malcolm wrote:The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.
It lifts entire passages wholesale. There was no Dzogchen at the time of Vasubhandu.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Malcolm »

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The text is often incorrectly dismissed as a copy of the Buddhist Abhidharmakosha but it is nothing of the sort.
It lifts entire passages wholesale.
Dan Martin analyzed the whole text. You need to read this if you are interested:

Comparing Treasuries: Mental states and Mdzod phug lists and passages with parallels in Abhidharma works by Vasubandhu and Asanga, or in Prajñāpāramitra sūtras: A progress report

http://ir.minpaku.ac.jp/dspace/bitstrea ... 15_004.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There was no Dzogchen at the time of Vasubhandu.
That merely serves to show how interesting the Mdzod phug is.

Incidentally, I made an error, the commentary of the Mdzod phug was produced about a century later.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Virgo »

Hey Malcolm, is this text available in English? I would love to read it.

Kevin
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
Posts: 3423
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by catmoon »

:offtopic:

We're getting complaints about off topic posts in this thread.

If you would like to discuss other things, kindly start another thread for it.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
ratna
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by ratna »

I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.
I'd appreciate if you elaborated on this.

BTW, could you give a TBRC reference for the commentary?

R
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Huseng »

I removed the bulk of this thread because it derailed.

Please keep to discussing Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug and the Kosha in a polite and reasonable manner. There is no need to refer to it using a "laugh test".

Criticism is fine, but make sure it is backed up with facts and please stay on topic.

Most importantly please remain polite. No need for sarcasm.
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by deepbluehum »

My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? I get that it has interesting anthropological interest. The OP was about whether the Kosha was influenced by the Mdzog phug. I think that notion can be very easily laid to waste considering the Kosha predates the Mdzog phug by 600 years. This is what prompted me to opine that LTN's assertion that Vasubandhu was influenced by Bon is unfounded, and also calls into question most of Bon's account of how it got Buddhism. His mastery of the methods notwithstanding.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Malcolm »

deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .
It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Malcolm »

ratna wrote:
I studied one chapter of it recently, the chapter on the five elements with Dranpa Namkhai's commentary, and found it to be an amazing text of much interest, much more interesting in many respects than Vasubandhu's Kosha for someone who is practicing Dzogchen.
I'd appreciate if you elaborated on this.

BTW, could you give a TBRC reference for the commentary?

R
The basic verses and the commentary were published by LTN in 1966.I have an original copy of that which is miraculously still in one piece.

The tbrc number for a later commentary is W23426.

Unfortunately LTN's edition Mdzod Phug: Basic Verses is not available through TBRC. I am just lucky to have acquired a copy from Saujanya books in India some years ago.

M
User avatar
ratna
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by ratna »

Thanks!
User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 4606
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Huseng wrote:I removed the bulk of this thread because it derailed.

Please keep to discussing Srid pa'i Mdzod Phug and the Kosha in a polite and reasonable manner. There is no need to refer to it using a "laugh test".

Criticism is fine, but make sure it is backed up with facts and please stay on topic.

Most importantly please remain polite. No need for sarcasm.
:good:
The best meditation is no meditation
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by deepbluehum »

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .
It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.
This has really nothing to do with the Kosha. The issue becomes how is the Mdzog phug an interesting text vis a vis Dzogchen.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Malcolm »

deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:My apologies:

So Malcolm, what's so special about this text that makes it useful vis a vis the Kosha? .
It is directly connected with Dzogchen practice.

Even if you take the position it is a pseudographia, it was produced by a realized Dzogchen master, Shenchen Luga, etc. So the teachings of Dzogchen permeate it.

It has interesting and detailed accounts of the dharmadhātu, wisdoms, etc.
This has really nothing to do with the Kosha. The issue becomes how is the Mdzog phug an interesting text vis a vis Dzogchen.

The Mdzod phug itself really has nothing to with the Kosha, apart from cribbing a few passages here and there (which Buddhists make a big fuss about, at the expense of the rest of the text).
deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by deepbluehum »

Okie. I accept that. What generated Jikan's interest was LTN's statement in "Heartdrops" that Vasubandhu got his cosmology from Bon. What's that about?
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Virgo »

deepbluehum wrote:Okie. I accept that. What generated Jikan's interest was LTN's statement in "Heartdrops" that Vasubandhu got his cosmology from Bon. What's that about?
Hum, I am not attacking you so don't take it the wrong way, but seriously? You think cosmology has importance when it means next to nothing because no matter what our ideas about the universe are we are always standing where we are (more important are astrology and so on) but think Abhidharma is of little importance? Abhidharmas are specific, detailed teachings on the mind, matter, sense bases, etc., etc., That is important (granted not so much in Dzogchen and so on). Not the cosmology so much.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by DGA »

I was interested in the cosmology as a historical & cultural artifact. That's why I asked about it, and to that extent I hope it's relevant to the discussion.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by Virgo »

Jikan wrote:I was interested in the cosmology as a historical & cultural artifact. That's why I asked about it, and to that extent I hope it's relevant to the discussion.
Any question any one has is relevant. And there is no doubt that cosmology hasa definite importance, but hum seemed to put down Abhidharmas in an earlier post and is more interested in cosmology. Why, I am not quite sure.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Mdzog Phug and the Kosha

Post by DGA »

Oh, I see. Looks like I misread your earlier post, Kevin.
Post Reply

Return to “Bön”