New Bon - Bon Sarma

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New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:30 pm

Tashi delek,

Dear Mutsok i have read here that your practice would be new Bon.

Well i have some thoughts in mind about new Bon or Bon Sarma, but it is only a glimpse about new Bon.

Some questions about new Bon / Bon Sarma:

- Could it be founded around the 17th century?
- Heard that the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche would have an important role here
- I have heard that here also Guru Rinpoche, Tara etc. would be venerated
- What was the reason that Bon Sarma was founded?
- What did the Kundröl Rinpoche as Tertons discovered and especial the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche
- What kind of Dzogchen is teached in Bon Sarma?

Thanks at beforehand for your attention and effort

P.s.: I hope that this dark blue colour is ok for your eyes. :)

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby mutsuk » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:41 pm

I'll ask JL to register here and answer himself. He knows much better. Whatever I know about New Bon comes from his work since he's the only one doing research on this tradition.
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:54 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:P.s.: I hope that this dark blue colour is ok for your eyes. :)


You could just choose to use the quote tags. It is much easier for everyone to read.

M
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:56 pm

and if quote in between is just too difficult to manage, a trick would be to use the "code" code ...

Code: Select all
like that
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:46 pm

mutsuk wrote:I'll ask JL to register here and answer himself. He knows much better. Whatever I know about New Bon comes from his work since he's the only one doing research on this tradition.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your attention and done efforts.

It would be great, if you could convince JL to register himself here aboard. :D

Bonpos would be very happy with JL here aboard, in one word an enrichment. :applause:
Yes i know he is informed about all kind of Bon matters and his presence here is very needed.

Anyway my best wishes for JL and i hope,that we can come in touch very soon with JL.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby mutsuk » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:09 am

I haven't convinced him to join yet ("too busy" he says). But I don't give up... However I forwarded the questions through the phone and here are the notes I've taken:

- Could it be founded around the 17th century?

No, not really. Some say so, but New Bon's specific narratives say otherwise. According to New Bon texts, New Bon was "created" by Drenpa Namkha and Vairocana in the 8th century. However, the teachings were forbidden by Trisong Detsen and hidden as termas. Historically, we have not a single proof of that though. New Bon first appears around the 14th century with the termas of Tulku Loden Nyingpo.

- Heard that the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche would have an important role here

The 7th Kundrol is a young man living in India now. You probably mean the 1st Kundrol, and in that case it's yes, he played a great role in the diffusion of New Bon but not as much as his master Sangye Lingpa (Changchub Dorje, 1705-1735). Sangye Lingpa's works are "totally syncretic" (dixit JL).

- I have heard that here also Guru Rinpoche, Tara etc. would be venerated

I don't know for Tara, but GR yes, there's plenty of texts associated with him in New Bon, but New Bon is not limited to texts associated with GR. You have lots of New Bon cycles in which GR plays no role. There are other examples such as Dorje Phakmo playing a significant role in some New Bon texts, Amitabha too, etc.

- What was the reason that Bon Sarma was founded?

Sang-ngak Lingpa's biography of Drenpa Namkha says that Drenpa Namkha feared the Bon teachings were going to be destroyed by the King Trisong Detsen. He also noted with Vairocana a common set of ideas Buddhism had with some Bon texts (all those above the 1st four Ways of Bon) and as Vairocana was also involved both in Buddhism and Bon, they compiled new teachings, based on both Bon and the Buddhist teachings of the day.

- What did the Kundröl Rinpoche as Tertons discovered and especial the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche

To quote JL : "the list is too long, check the japanese catalogue of the Katen, it should be online somewhere". As far as JL knows, the 7th Kundrol has not yet revealed any of his termas.

- What kind of Dzogchen is teached in Bon Sarma?

Practically only Upadesha.

P.s.: I hope that this dark blue colour is ok for your eyes. :)

Yes, that makes reading much easier! thanks.
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:54 am

mutsuk wrote:I haven't convinced him to join yet ("too busy" he says). But I don't give up... However I forwarded the questions through the phone and here are the notes I've taken:

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your replies but especially for your effort regarding contacting JL.
Yes he is always very busy, i know......

You wrote also that JL has permission from Lopon lak that he can teach, very great to have such a permission.
Yeh don' t give it up :applause:

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color
]

- Could it be founded around the 17th century?

No, not really. Some say so, but New Bon's specific narratives say otherwise. According to New Bon texts, New Bon was "created" by Drenpa Namkha and Vairocana in the 8th century. However, the teachings were forbidden by Trisong Detsen and hidden as termas. Historically, we have not a single proof of that though. New Bon first appears around the 14th century with the termas of Tulku Loden Nyingpo.

[color=#000040]Vairocana of Paghor / China is here meant i suppose. Was Vairocana a Bonpo or a Buddhist or maybe both?


- Heard that the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche would have an important role here

The 7th Kundrol is a young man living in India now. You probably mean the 1st Kundrol, and in that case it's yes, he played a great role in the diffusion of New Bon but not as much as his master Sangye Lingpa (Changchub Dorje, 1705-1735). Sangye Lingpa's works are "totally syncretic" (dixit JL).

Yes i meant in general all Kundröl Rinpoches.
Here i can see a Dorje Thekpa name like Changchub Dorje. Was he also inside Vajrayana engaged?


- I have heard that here also Guru Rinpoche, Tara etc. would be venerated

I don't know for Tara, but GR yes, there's plenty of texts associated with him in New Bon, but New Bon is not limited to texts associated with GR. You have lots of New Bon cycles in which GR plays no role. There are other examples such as Dorje Phakmo playing a significant role in some New Bon texts, Amitabha too, etc.

How many Bon cycles does have Bon Sarma? Also very interesting to know what texts are here meant which are associated with GR? Yes i know also that some Bonpos are not so for a statue on their shrine of GR.

- What was the reason that Bon Sarma was founded?

Sang-ngak Lingpa's biography of Drenpa Namkha says that Drenpa Namkha feared the Bon teachings were going to be destroyed by the King Trisong Detsen. He also noted with Vairocana a common set of ideas Buddhism had with some Bon texts (all those above the 1st four Ways of Bon) and as Vairocana was also involved both in Buddhism and Bon, they compiled new teachings, based on both Bon and the Buddhist teachings of the day.

When i understood it right then Bon Sarma started already at the time of the Tibetan king Trisong Detsen. That is for me a quite new vision about the Bon Sarma. What has the 17th century then to do with Bon Sarma? That is what i have had in mind.....


- What did the Kundröl Rinpoche as Tertons discovered and especial the 7th Kundröl Rinpoche

To quote JL : "the list is too long, check the japanese catalogue of the Katen, it should be online somewhere". As far as JL knows, the 7th Kundrol has not yet revealed any of his termas.

In case this list is too long then there are a lot of Termas discovered by the Kundröl Rinpoches. But maybe some of the most important Termas could be mentioned? This because my Tibetan is poor and i have no insight in the Katen. Remarkable is also that untill now the 7th Kundrol has not yet revealed any of his termas.


- What kind of Dzogchen is teached in Bon Sarma?

Practically only Upadesha.

Does the Yetri Thasel belong to Bon Sarma maybe? Or is it another Dzogchen cycle of teachings which is mainly practiced within Bon Sarma?


P.s.: I hope that this dark blue colour is ok for your eyes. :)

Yes, that makes reading much easier! thanks.


The script colour is at the moment a little bit darker and i see that the result is improved. :D
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby mutsuk » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:26 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:You wrote also that JL has permission from Lopon lak that he can teach, very great to have such a permission.

Oh I think he does not have any intention to use it and is not really into teaching at all. He likes the forest better...

Vairocana of Paghor / China is here meant i suppose. Was Vairocana a Bonpo or a Buddhist or maybe both?

Vairocana was first Bonpo but he became one of the first ordained tibetan buddhist monks and then was sent to India by the king to look for Dzogchen texts.

Here i can see a Dorje Thekpa name like Changchub Dorje. Was he also inside Vajrayana engaged?

There is no exclusion of Tantras or Sutras in Bon. Generally what a "qualified" master means in Bon is someone proficient in Sutras, Tantras, and Dzogchen (+ all other outer sciences, etc.). Sangye Lingpa discovered a lot of tantric works. Some are still very famous in eastern tibet.

How many Bon cycles does have Bon Sarma?

I don't know, probably hundreds or thousands, it's gigantic and still open to new revelations.

Also very interesting to know what texts are here meant which are associated with GR?

Many of them but not all New Bon is associated with GR. Dechen Lingpa for instance had lots of visions of GR, but not a single of his termas is associated with him. They are all associated with Drenpa Namkha.

Yes i know also that some Bonpos are not so for a statue on their shrine of GR.

In Shardza Rinpoche's first monastery (where he was educated), there was a gigantic statue of Chenrezig in a shrine, as well as other buddhist deities, and also a Buddhist Kanjur and Tengyur. When the gelukpas burnt it down, they also destroyed the statues and burnt the libraries, which means they destroyed buddhist statues and buddhist canons... This is silly. What is even more silly, is that the crucial thing that distinguishes Bonpos (especially those associated with Menri) from Gelukpas is Dzogchen in their curriculum. Otherwise Bon monks have the same curriculum as Geluks. By same I mean similar subjects.

When i understood it right then Bon Sarma started already at the time of the Tibetan king Trisong Detsen. That is for me a quite new vision about the Bon Sarma.

Well this is the New Bon narrative. You don't have to buy it.

What has the 17th century then to do with Bon Sarma? That is what i have had in mind.....

17th century ? Nothing I guess. But the 18th century sure: it saw the birth of the 1st Kundrol, of Sangye Lingpa and other New Bon masters which are less well-known.


In case this list is too long then there are a lot of Termas discovered by the Kundröl Rinpoches.

About 42 volumes in the recent reprint. Or maybe it's 62, I don't remember.

But maybe some of the most important Termas could be mentioned?

Tsalung Khandro Sangdzo is the "best-seller" of the Kundrol lineage.

Does the Yetri Thasel belong to Bon Sarma maybe?

No, but it's a cycle belonging to the Bon of India.

Or is it another Dzogchen cycle of teachings which is mainly practiced within Bon Sarma?

Yetri is a core text used in the Drubdra curriculum by monks in Menri. It is not connected to New Bon.
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Re: New Bon - Bon Sarma

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:28 pm

KY wrote:
But maybe some of the most important Termas could be mentioned?


Mutsog wrote:
Tsalung Khandro Sangdzo is the "best-seller" of the Kundrol lineage.



Tashi delek,

Many thanks for your efffort.

Tsalung Khandro Sangdzo is the "best-seller" of the Kundrol lineage. Found a nice link to the topic:
http://khyungmkhar.blogspot.nl/2012/05/ ... kinis.html

Will order the book. The book would be an enrichment for our foundation' s library. :)

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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