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To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Yes
36
58%
No
20
32%
Not Sure
6
10%
 
Total votes: 62

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zavk
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby zavk » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:10 pm

With metta,
zavk

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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:13 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:47 pm

Last edited by kc2dpt on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:50 pm

- Peter


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:56 pm

I'll continue to practice reconditioning the patterns of the mind, restraining desires in everyday life. and benefiting society as I can. You can be the keeper of the faith. :toast:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:19 pm

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:26 pm

Whether the teachings on rebirth are rational is irrelevant to the question in this thread.
Whether the sangha has correctly preserved the teachings is irrelevant to the question in this thread.
Whether one finds the teachings on rebirth relevant to one's practice is irrelevant to the question in this thread.

The question is: for one who refuses to accept these teachings, does it make any sense to call them a Buddhist?

I clarify because I've allowed myself to get off topic in the last few posts.
- Peter


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tiltbillings
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:46 pm


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pink_trike
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:55 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:48 am

- Peter


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pink_trike
Posts: 1130
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby pink_trike » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:01 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Dan74
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:00 am

_/|\_

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:11 am



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Tex
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Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Tex » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:23 am

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:31 am



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Dan74
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Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:55 am

How does the belief in rebirth aid your practice, Tex? And do you think that this aid is essential in practicing the path as outlined by the Buddha?

The example you use, Tex, of gravity, is like kamma - it doesn't need to be taken on faith. My 8-month-old daughter believes in gravity (mind, you she is enlightened).

To continue to your physics analogy, yes, Einstein was also pretty serious about Relativity, but it doesn't need to be believed, but investigated, when one is ready. If I am doing high school physics, I am not going to be ready for this investigation. So if you come and tell me that an astronaut comes back to Earth younger than her identical twin, I will think you are kidding or get very confused. When the time comes, one investigates, and may indeed find that Einstein was right.

Until then one can happily study physics. Indeed one can even be a physicist (researching Quantum Mechanics or Particle Physics) and never need to verify this fact. But maybe rebirth is more central that this. I don't know.

_/|\_
_/|\_

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Rui Sousa
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Location: London, UK

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Rui Sousa » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:37 am

I like to look at the beginning of a live and try to see what there is to be seen. You only have to take a deep look at the children on maternity and see how different those beings are. Some newborns smile a lot, some cry a lot, some are struggling, some are accepting, some are afraid, some are confident.

And if you can observe their growth, then you can see how they develop differently, but also how many tendencies are always there. That mind-body happening is conditioned, and some latencies last for the whole existence of that being. Not just bodily characteristics, which are inherited from the parents, but also mind characteristics. Accepting that the mind precedes all phenomena, that conditioning of the mind doesn't came from the body, it has to come from the mind.

But if the mind is already born conditioned at birth, from where is that conditioning coming from? God? A mystical aleatory mind formation out of thin air?

The only satisfactory answer I got from my quest on religious books, is that of rebirth, kamma and anatta.

In my understanding the conditioned nature of the mind implies that there is a mind-continuum, on which the laws of conditioning take effect. The only meaningful explanation I know for the existence of different planes of existence (on which I believe for many reasons), and for the logic behind the birth of a being on this or that plane, is kamma and rebirth.

Those of you who don't accept kamma and rebirth, or think that their acceptance is not mandatory to be a Buddhist, have a better explanation for the different mind states, and latencies, of newborns?
With Metta

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zavk
Posts: 1161
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby zavk » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:03 pm

With metta,
zavk

User avatar
Tex
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:46 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Tex » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:03 pm

Last edited by Tex on Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus

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Prasadachitta
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Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
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Re: To be Buddhist you must accept kamma and rebirth?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:13 pm

It seems to me it would be a better question to ask "Could you accurately be called a Buddhist if you reject rebirth without knowing and seeing for yourself whether it has validity?". I think it is the lack of rejection of Karma and rebirth which is of critical importance to effective practice not whether one accepts it or not.

Metta


Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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