1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

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1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby mrbambocha » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:27 pm

Hi!
I wonder if someone could explain the 1st and 2nd noble thruths a bit more in depth.
Im just gonna say how my natural thought process goes like and I would love to hear your corrections.


1. All things are suffering. (all things cause suffering)
Isnt suffering a natural part of life? Isnt suffering good as a driving force to improve? If we never would suffer we wouldn't know how pleasure feelt. Isnt the suffering what motivates us to progress and improve at work, with family and on your inner path (so we get more pleasure)? How can all things be suffering? Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?

2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something. Its the desire to succeed at work, with family and on your inner path that drives you to put in time and effort to progress in life. If there where no reward for the effort no one would do anything, right? So isnt desire a natural thing aswell to make progress in life?

Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:37 pm

Suffering in Buddhist terms is not only about mundane suffering. Yes it still hurts for a while when someone punches you in the face, but you come to see what is impermanent and what is lasting.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:45 pm

mrbambocha wrote:Isnt suffering a natural part of life?

Word "natural" is meaningless, everything is natural.
mrbambocha wrote:Isnt suffering good as a driving force to improve?

May be.
mrbambocha wrote:If we never would suffer we wouldn't know how pleasure feelt.

Sounds as a good deal to me.
Isnt the suffering what motivates us to progress and improve at work, with family and on your inner path (so we get more pleasure)?

Fear of suffering does.
How can all things be suffering?

They can, as long as you have expectations toward them.
Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?

Yes they are, and lack of them is suffering.
If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something.

Only partially true. Without desire, there is no pre-meditation, and creativity is released. Achievement becomes spontaneous.
If there where no reward for the effort no one would do anything, right?

Don't forget about the fear of punishment. Both give simplified explanation. Unconditioned compassion and creativity is the real acting force.
So isnt desire a natural thing aswell to make progress in life?

Where do you want to go? What is the end of this progress? If you find the answer, you will see how deluded people are, as they are craving for something that they had from the beginning.

Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?

Effortless and blissful.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Matt J » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:20 am

Personally, I would not define "dukkha" as positive pain. The first Noble Truth means that nothing is satisfying. If sex were truly satisfying, then we'd only need to have it once. The same goes for the other things you have listed. I've read that winning the lottery gives a temporary, short term spike in happiness, but people usually settle to their prior levels of happiness after getting used to it.

It is more of clinging, craving, and wanting that is the cause of dukkha. If we weren't driven by greed and desire, perhaps we would be driven by wisdom and compassion.

mrbambocha wrote:Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?
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If only there is no picking or choosing
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby mrbambocha » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:00 am

Isnt suffering a natural part of life?
- Word "natural" is meaningless, everything is natural.


How do you mean? Arent some things in life natural and some unnatural? Overeating for example, there are no overweighted wild animals, so isn’t it unnatural to be fat?


Isnt the suffering what motivates us to progress and improve at work, with family and on your inner path (so we get more pleasure)?
- Fear of suffering does.


Agree. But don’t we need that fear? I don’t know what other alternative ways there to motivate oneself to progress but Id love to find out!

How can all things be suffering?
- They can, as long as you have expectations toward them.


How can you live life without expectations? If we don’t have expectations we wouldnt do anything I guess. If you don’t get payed at work I guess one wouldn’t continue to work there for long, so you work there because you expect to get paid. Can we invest time/feeling in others if we don’t expect a good outcome?

Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?
- Yes they are, and lack of them is suffering.


But we “need” some of them right? We need to eat, sleep and socialize. We need to reproduce. How can we live without them?


If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something.
- Only partially true. Without desire, there is no pre-meditation, and creativity is released. Achievement becomes spontaneous.


Could you develop it a bit more. How can one do anything without desire? Whats the right mindset?

So isnt desire a natural thing aswell to make progress in life?
- Where do you want to go? What is the end of this progress? If you find the answer, you will see how deluded people are, as they are craving for something that they had from the beginning.


This might be the best thing Ive ever read!! This is so through. But how about wanting to get more money so you can help more people in your surrounding, or so that you can invest them in something so you can get the money working for you which creates more freedome then you had before? How about work out to keep your body at peak? If you never workout you will never use the full potential of your body, if you don’t work out your body gets weaker.


Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?
- Effortless and blissful.


Sounds amazing! Whats the path to get there? The eightfolded path and meditation?


- The first Noble Truth means that nothing is satisfying.

I try to understand it but I really cant. Ive read about the three charachteristics but I cant grasp it (thought I would do another thread about that after I get this clear).

-If we weren't driven by greed and desire, perhaps we would be driven by wisdom and compassion.

Again, I dont understand how I could do something without desire. It doesn't exist in my mind for the moment. I cant see how that could be done, but Id love to!
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby oushi » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:47 am

mrbambocha wrote:How do you mean? Arent some things in life natural and some unnatural? Overeating for example, there are no overweighted wild animals, so isn’t it unnatural to be fat?

No, everything is natural. People invented the word unnatural to separate themselves from the wild life, but this is false division. Everything comes from nature, even chemical wastes. People can behave differently than hippos, but that doesn’t make them unnatural. Even your computer is natural, as it comes from nature.
mrbambocha wrote:But don’t we need that fear?

If we wouldn’t need fear it wouldn’t have had developed. But this is a different kind of fear based on imagined conditions.
mrbambocha wrote:How can you live life without expectations? If we don’t have expectations we wouldnt do anything I guess. If you don’t get payed at work I guess one wouldn’t continue to work there for long, so you work there because you expect to get paid. Can we invest time/feeling in others if we don’t expect a good outcome?

Try to not do anything. And why do you want to invest in feelings, love is best when unconditioned.
mrbambocha wrote:But we “need” some of them right? We need to eat, sleep and socialize. We need to reproduce. How can we live without them?

Nobody said we have to. What’s more, nothing should be abandoned.
Could you develop it a bit more. How can one do anything without desire? Whats the right mindset?

One cannot stop doing. What is better, to drag an ox, or to ride it?
mrbambocha wrote: But how about wanting to get more money so you can help more people in your surrounding, or so that you can invest them in something so you can get the money working for you which creates more freedome then you had before?

Money wont save the world from suffering, and wont give you freedom.
mrbambocha wrote:How about work out to keep your body at peak?

Just don't limit your body by you mind, and it will be at its peak.
If you never workout you will never use the full potential of your body, if you don’t work out your body gets weaker.

What is the reason it gets weaker? Because strength is not needed, and it costs energy. So becoming weaker is perfectly fine.
mrbambocha wrote:Sounds amazing! Whats the path to get there? The eightfolded path and meditation?

Yes.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:54 am

mrbambocha wrote:1. All things are suffering. (all things cause suffering)
...
2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
...
Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?


1. All things are not suffering. In First Noble Truth, it is said there is suffering. So, we are not suffering. Instead, we just have suffering.

2. Desire is not the cause of suffering. Attachment and grasping are the causes. However, the root is ignorant.

In life, you will experient pleasure and pain, so the task in buddhism is to see the nature of both in order to transcend them.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Quiet Heart » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:38 am

mrbambocha wrote:Hi!
I wonder if someone could explain the 1st and 2nd noble thruths a bit more in depth.
Im just gonna say how my natural thought process goes like and I would love to hear your corrections.

1. All things are suffering. (all things cause suffering)
Isnt suffering a natural part of life? Isnt suffering good as a driving force to improve? If we never would suffer we wouldn't know how pleasure feelt. Isnt the suffering what motivates us to progress and improve at work, with family and on your inner path (so we get more pleasure)? How can all things be suffering? Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?

2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something. Its the desire to succeed at work, with family and on your inner path that drives you to put in time and effort to progress in life. If there where no reward for the effort no one would do anything, right? So isnt desire a natural thing aswell to make progress in life?

Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?

----------------------------
:smile:
Yes, but it is deeper also.
Suffering is a part of life, but so is joy. Joy and suffering are just like a coin with two sides...heads and tails. You can not really know one of them completely without knowing the other.
All things, therefore, are NOT only suffering....like all composite objects in this world of form...they are a combination of percieved joy and suffering.
But those perceptions are only illusions generated ny your mind,
All composite objects ( as described above) arise dependently....they come from dependent orientation by your mind's perception.
Since they are composite objects...an illusion of your mind....they have no self-inherent existance apart from those other things they arise from dependently....in short, all composite objects are inter-dependent.
Because they have no self-inherent existance they may be called "empty" or essentially "emptiness".
That is why in Zen it is said, "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness".
Those things that give you pleasure are also composite objects....and therefore, though they may give temporary pleasure, they also contain sadness, suffering, and essential emptiness.
There is nothing wrong with wanting pleasue....just as long as you clearly understand that because of it's illusionary nature...it's essential emptiness....pleasure, gain, matierial wealth...amd so on can NOT be obtained witout the sorrow and suffering that is an inherent part of it....the tail to the head of that coin.
So how would life be without suffering or joy.
It would be freedom....once you understood the true nature of both suffering and joy....two sides of one coin.
Understanding that true nature...knowing both suffering and joy as inter-dependent....wherever the wind of illusion blew you would be all you needed.
But getting there....now that's why you need to practice.
:smile:
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby catmoon » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:40 am

Lack of food is suffering, but so is chocolate cake. Not that eating the cake isn't nice, it's just that the outcome is either

I'm out of cake -> suffering
I ate way too much cake -> suffering
I'll just have one piece and then restrain myself -> suffering

So we are not saying that the inherent nature of cake is suffering, because if that were true, it would have to taste awful. It's that, like all samsara, it inevitably leads to suffering, whether great or small.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby seeker242 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:21 pm

Arent these stuff pure pleasure: sex, eating, sleeping, winning on lottery, getting a massage, spending time with friends and family, walking in the nature?


As I have learned, suffering, in a Buddhist context, also means the continual need to experience pleasure and avoid displeasure. What if you aren't able to have sex anymore, what then? What if you lose the money you won in the lottery, what then? What if you play the lottery and don't win, what then? What if your family member or friend, that you so enjoy spending time with, dies in a car accident, what then? What if you are in the same accident and become paralyzed and can no longer walk in the woods, what then?

Not suffering, in the Buddhist context, means to not be dependent on experiencing pleasure and avoiding displeasure but to be content with whatever situation happens to arise. So if you win the lottery, that's ok. If you don't win the lottery, that's ok too. If you family is here with you, that's ok. If you family member dies, which they inevitably will, that's ok too. If you can walk in the woods, that's ok. If you can't, that's ok too. You have happiness regardless of any of those things. And one day, when the grim reaper comes for you, you are guaranteed to lose all of those things. What will happen then?

2. Desire is the cause of suffering.
If there is no desire there is no feelings and if there are no feelings there is no driving force to achieve something. Its the desire to succeed at work, with family and on your inner path that drives you to put in time and effort to progress in life. If there where no reward for the effort no one would do anything, right?


I would not agree with that at all. Look at the wise Buddhist masters who have attained freedom from desire. They don't just sit around doing nothing. They do lots of things, all of which is for the benefit of others. So you could say that self-ish actions stop, but self-less actions do not. :)

Ive heard that the two driving forces in life is either to get something pleasurable or to avoid pain. How would life be without them?


It would be perfect!

Total ease, complete calm, absolute freedom, perfect happiness & pure peace…
Absence of any uncertainty, doubt, confusion, any delusion and all ignorance…
Presence of confidence, certainty, understanding all, and direct experience…
Absence of any greed, lust, desire, urge, attraction, hunger, and temptation…
Presence of imperturbable and serene composure in an all stilled equanimity…
Absence of all hate, anger, aversion, hostility, irritation, & stubborn rigidity…
Presence of universal goodwill: An infinite & all-embracing friendly kindness…


:smile:
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby mrbambocha » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:47 am

Thanks alot for your responses and sorry for being a bit slow :D This is so new to me so its really hard to grasp it after all these years of influence from the western society.

So your saying that there is suffering, not that "Im suffering"?
So the problem is that Im identifing myself with my feelings?
That Im clinging/attaching myself to thing and expecting thing?

And the solution is to be content with whatever happens?
I dont understand how that is possible or if id want that.
How can you live a life without feeling and emotions?
Isnt that to being apathetic?

I couldnt imagine a life without pleasure and feeling, but I guess its because I dont know whats beyond that.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 am

mrbambocha wrote:
I couldnt imagine a life without pleasure and feeling, but I guess its because I dont know whats beyond that.


Take another look at the last quote in the post prior to yours. It says pretty exactly what is "beyond that". Contemplate what it might be like.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Seishin » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:42 pm

"Desire" and "Suffering" are English words used badly (IMHO) to translate "Dukkha" and "Tanha"

Dukkha - discomfort, unsatisfactory, anxiety, stress, suffering
Tanha - craving, ambition, desire, restlessness, thirst

A lot of people say that without ambition (Tanha) we would never have medicine, science, etc, but equally, we wouldn't have wars and homicide etc. Plus, neither of these are without Dukkha and neither of these bring lasting happiness, which is what the Buddha was trying to illustrate in the 4 noble truths.
A lot of people also say, "but that's life, it's always been that way and always will" and it was answers like this phrase that set Shakyamuni on his path to Enlightenment.

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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby seeker242 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:59 pm

mrbambocha wrote:How can you live a life without feeling and emotions?
Isnt that to being apathetic?


Remove the "life without feeling and emotion" part, because it's not correct, and change the word "apathetic" to "equanimity" and then you will be on the right track. :) There is a very big difference between apathy and equanimity. :) There is still feeling and emotion, it is just that they no longer disturb the equanimity.

It's like being out in the ocean, with big waves, in a boat that is anchored vs one that isn't. The one that is not anchored gets blown all over the place and ends up far away, constantly being blown and drifting all over the place. Sometime out into the middle of nowhere, sometimes it gets blown up onto the rocks of some island somewhere. The one that is anchored still feels the waves hit it, but it does not drift away. It's stable and grounded and it stay where it is, because it's anchored. Something like that. :smile: The idea that there is no feeling or emotion is not really accurate. :)
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby oushi » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:07 pm

seeker242 wrote:It's like being out in the ocean, with big waves, in a boat that is anchored vs one that isn't. The one that is not anchored gets blown all over the place and ends up far away, constantly being blown and drifting all over the place. Sometime out into the middle of nowhere, sometimes it gets blown up onto the rocks of some island somewhere. The one that is anchored still feels the waves hit it, but it does not drift away. It's stable and grounded and it stay where it is, because it's anchored. Something like that.

Which one is the analogy of equanimity?
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Jyoti » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:21 pm

mrbambocha wrote:So your saying that there is suffering, not that "Im suffering"?


In Buddhism the concept of suffering is based on impermanence. If there is permanence, there is bliss. In the 2 lower vehicles of buddhism, the dharma of permanence was not taught, so suffering was taken as real literally. In the mahayana, phenomena is taught to be non-arisen, since phenomena did not arise, suffering too did not arise as true existence. Phenomena only has conventional reality in dependent-origination which in reality did not arise. Out of the four noble truth, only the third truth is taken as true in the mahayana. The definitive teaching of the mahayana directly arrived at the third truth (there is no other three).

For suffering that has no truth in reality due to permanence of dharmadhatu, there cannot be a suffering that truly exist.

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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Nothing » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:56 pm

oushi wrote:
seeker242 wrote:It's like being out in the ocean, with big waves, in a boat that is anchored vs one that isn't. The one that is not anchored gets blown all over the place and ends up far away, constantly being blown and drifting all over the place. Sometime out into the middle of nowhere, sometimes it gets blown up onto the rocks of some island somewhere. The one that is anchored still feels the waves hit it, but it does not drift away. It's stable and grounded and it stay where it is, because it's anchored. Something like that.

Which one is the analogy of equanimity?

One needs to get to the island and step on it!
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby catmoon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:39 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Out of the four noble truth, only the third truth is taken as true in the mahayana. The definitive teaching of the mahayana directly arrived at the third truth (there is no other three).


Jyoti


The Dalai Lama is a pretty mahayana kind of guy, and he gave multi-day teachings on the Four Noble Truths, and he did not discard any of them that I recall.
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby seeker242 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:24 am

oushi wrote:
seeker242 wrote:It's like being out in the ocean, with big waves, in a boat that is anchored vs one that isn't. The one that is not anchored gets blown all over the place and ends up far away, constantly being blown and drifting all over the place. Sometime out into the middle of nowhere, sometimes it gets blown up onto the rocks of some island somewhere. The one that is anchored still feels the waves hit it, but it does not drift away. It's stable and grounded and it stay where it is, because it's anchored. Something like that.

Which one is the analogy of equanimity?


The one not being blown all over the place by wind and waves. The anchored one, the one that does not drift away. And the chain and anchor of the boat is "wisdom" that is grounded in the seabed, with the seabed being "reality as it actually is". And the fixture that fixes the chain and anchor to the boat is "concentration". However, this thing called sila is needed in order to manufacture the fixture of concentration, that provides the link from the boat to the seabed, which provides grounded equanimity. Or something like that :smile:
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Re: 1-2 Noble Thruth explanation.

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:43 am

catmoon wrote:The Dalai Lama is a pretty mahayana kind of guy, and he gave multi-day teachings on the Four Noble Truths, and he did not discard any of them that I recall.


You will find that the Tibetan traditions, including the dialectic traditions accept the four noble truths literally. Generally these Tibetan buddhsim is based on skillful means which is not considered the definitive teaching of the Buddha. To them the mahayana means the gradual vehicle of the bodhisattva yana. The cause of such misunderstanding of the mahayana teaching is probably due to not having accessed to the scriptures of definitive meaning that are preserved in the chinese tripitaka.

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