Acceptance or Judgement?

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Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:51 pm

As someone new to Buddhism, I have thought that we should accept that each is drawn to their own path.
As in which 'school/lineage' they choose. Or even which religion they choose. As I have read, at least they are being taught the proper way to live and treat each other.

I have seen so many posts in which members say things like "this teacher said.........and you are mistaken".
I understand that there is some minor differences in the lineages of Buddhism. But each does give great direction to the proper way to live and to accept others for who they are and their spiritual path as well as to treat them as brothers and sisters.
Not the little brother or sister you picked on or the older one you try to get back at.
This is referring to Mahayana Buddhism and it's different lineages. As this is the only one I have an understanding of, and a minor one at that.

I have greatly appreciated the help from so many members here in the explanation's they've given me and others in understanding the Teachings of The Buddha.
But there are some that no matter what is being discussed must say they are right according to the lineage they follow, and all others are wrong.

So why must we judge others and not accept that each is learning as they progress on their path in the lineage and from the teachers/lamas they have been drawn too?
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:17 pm

That's why the Buddha said taught the truth of suffering.
It is not difficult to overcome the obstacles you mention
but it takes a lot of diligence and effort.
Thanks for your observations!
.
.
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby viniketa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:32 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:I have seen so many posts in which members say things like "this teacher said.........and you are mistaken"


Also, you should understand that all this argumentation is part of the Buddhist heritage and interpreted as being something of which the Buddha would approve (see the Kalama Sutta). In fact, probably some posters may consider this as part of their 'practice'.

Although some traditions say that one must do whatever it takes to show that your opponents 'view' is wrong, I myself prefer a more respectful style that does not denigrate one's opponent, their character, or their teacher. :thumbsup:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby KeithBC » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:44 pm

viniketa wrote:some traditions say that one must do whatever it takes to show that your opponents 'view' is wrong

I would certainly not subscribe to that view. If I feel that someone's view is wrong, there is generally no reason why I need to inflict that opinion on him or her. My thoughts on someone else's view are not generally their business.

On the other hand, if the discussion turns in a way that makes my views on the subject relevant, I see nothing wrong whith saying what I believe. It is perfectly possible, healthy and rewarding to have respectful discussions with people whom you believe are wrong. It is not inherently disrespectful to say that you think someone is wrong. The point, if it is relevant, can be made respectfully.

It only becomes a problem if one believes (as many apparently do) that it is necessary to be disrespectful when addressing someone who is wrong.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby viniketa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:52 pm

KeithBC wrote:It only becomes a problem if one believes (as many apparently do) that it is necessary to be disrespectful when addressing someone who is wrong.


Yes. Then, it can become very problematic...

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:56 pm

Thank you all for the replies, as usual I have gained more knowledge and understanding.
Padma, as usual thanks.
Keith, I appreciate the input.
Viniketa, thanks for the link.
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby SSJ3Gogeta » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:23 am

Dave The Seeker wrote:I understand that there is some minor differences in the lineages of Buddhism.


Major differences.
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby plwk » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:55 am

What were you expecting dave?
This is an online forum...like all online forums, I never assume that just because someone posts something smart or intelligible that they are even 'Buddhist' unless I have direct confirmation that such and such are so and that too there's no such thing as one free from acceptance or judgement, including myself, save for an Arya ... besides, there that old maxim on one is not punished for not reading something that we don't subscribe to...as an old mod told me once... :tongue:
Haven't you heard that much of the yadayada and sectarianism exists more online than in real life?
That's why I treasure actual involvement with a real life sangha, even if the distance is daunting, anyday over an online one, unless I really have no choice...
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:04 pm

plwk wrote:What were you expecting dave?


Possibly less ego :shrug: :rolling:

This is an online forum...like all online forums, I never assume that just because someone posts something smart or intelligible that they are even 'Buddhist' unless I have direct confirmation that such and such are so and that too there's no such thing as one free from acceptance or judgement, including myself, save for an Arya ...


I just read and ask questions to learn. And I'm also not free from the two

besides, there that old maxim on one is not punished for not reading something that we don't subscribe to...as an old mod told me once... :tongue:


:twothumbsup: very true

Haven't you heard that much of the yadayada and sectarianism exists more online than in real life?
That's why I treasure actual involvement with a real life sangha, even if the distance is daunting, anyday over an online one, unless I really have no choice...


I am trying to get to a real life sangha, but with finances and no time off work it is difficult.

Thanks for your input
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:43 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:As someone new to Buddhism, I have thought that we should accept that each is drawn to their own path.
As in which 'school/lineage' they choose. Or even which religion they choose. As I have read, at least they are being taught the proper way to live and treat each other.

I have seen so many posts in which members say things like "this teacher said.........and you are mistaken".


It is true that everyone finds their own path.
It is not true, however, that all paths lead to what would be considered by the buddhist teachings
to be the perfect cessation of suffering.
The history of Buddhism is full of debate,
and of demonstrating why some interpretations can be shown to be misinterpretations.

For the most part, Theravada, Mahyayana and Vajrayana all bring the practitioner to the same essential point,
although there are many details and points of differentiation.
If three people go to the beach, and one walks on the shore and lets the water splash over their feet,
another goes out to waist level and swims around,
and the last one goes scuba diving,
you can't say that one person's experience of the ocean is more or less valid than what someone else experiences
because it's all the same ocean.

If a fourth person stands on the dry sand picking up seashells, they are also having a day at the beach
but it is not the experience of the ocean water. It may be something that the tide has washed up on the shore.

Likewise, a lot of people talk about things like karma, rebirth, merit, emptiness and so on, like picking up shells.
Their experience is valid, but it may not actually be what the teachings say.
Confusion is just as valid of an experience as is wisdom!
Maybe it's just something they read about meditation in a fashion magazine or something.
They are at the beach, and they can see the ocean but they haven't really gotten into the water yet.

So, it may not really be so much a matter of people being judgmental
or an issue of being judgmental vs. being accepting
as it is people trying to clarify misunderstandings and yelling
"hey....the surf is over here!"
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:35 pm

Thanks a lot Padma, that is a really good analogy. :twothumbsup:

As always you've really helped me to see things much more clearly. :namaste:
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby viniketa » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:49 pm

My thanks, too, Padma. What a lovely teaching!

:bow:

:namaste:
If they can sever like and dislike, along with greed, anger, and delusion, regardless of their difference in nature, they will all accomplish the Buddha Path.. ~ Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby futerko » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:46 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:So, it may not really be so much a matter of people being judgmental
or an issue of being judgmental vs. being accepting
as it is people trying to clarify misunderstandings and yelling
"hey....the surf is over here!"


That's easy for you to say in that wetsuit - I'm standing here in my speedos and the water is freezing! :tongue:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:08 am

:rolling:
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby KeithBC » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:50 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Confusion is just as valid of an experience as is wisdom!
I like it :D It was just begging to be quoted.

Om mani padme hum
Keith
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Re: Acceptance or Judgement?

Postby lobster » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:59 am

People see their ignorance reflected in others
. . . and wisdom originating in their arisings.

By turning this around and aknowledging the wisdom in others
and our innate ignorance, we find . . .
. . . well I am sure somone will tell us . . . :consoling:
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