Re: Direct Teaching
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:19 am
It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.oushi wrote:...
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It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.oushi wrote:...
How could I know that? I only described known pitfalls, which were stressed over and over again by great masters in the past. If you think that you can achieve something by deliberate practice, tell me what will you achieve?Fu Ri Shin wrote:It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.oushi wrote:...
Longchenpa wrote:In all experience of samsara and nirvana, inner and outer,
convinced of the absence of both delusion and freedom from delusion,
we do not seek to abandon samsara or attain nirvana.
For this particular approach, it may be true, but on the other hand, do we need instruction and permission to perceive, or rather be, the reality? If it's unstoppable, how come it needs to be started? The teacher is one, and he doesn't teach those surrounding him. So, the oral instruction is helpful but certainly not required.muni wrote:ps As mentioned we need oral instructions from our master.
I stand corrected. Although this:oushi wrote:How could I know that?Fu Ri Shin wrote:It's intriguing that you seem to truly believe that you know what is going on with other people's practice.oushi wrote:...
...seems to imply otherwise.oushi wrote:Every practice that has craving as its root. That is why we have hundreds of millions practitioners, and maybe few hundreds awakened.
Practice is practice. Getting caught up in whether it's deliberate or not at any given moment is beside the point.oushi wrote:I only described known pitfalls, which were stressed over and over again by great masters in the past. If you think that you can achieve something by deliberate practice, tell me what will you achieve?
Oh, no intention of that here. I was trying to understand the perspective his comments are coming from. Thank you for your mindfulness of the thread.catmoon wrote:Careful there.
This discussion has just settled down nicely from a tendency towards personal sniping, which is a really good example of Buddhist practice. Don't throw it away.
Can you prove that statement is not true? I do not know every practitioner personally, but I know about a lot of misconceptions going on in the "practice" area. And it's not about the false teachings, but misinterpretation. Result of that is fractions of a % of realized practitioners. I recall Mumon Yamada stating that for example Zen in Japan is dead. I can list many such an examples.Fu Ri Shin wrote:Every practice that has craving as its root.
Cannot disagree.Fu Ri Shin wrote:Practice is practice
It's the whole point.Fu Ri Shin wrote:Getting caught up in whether it's deliberate or not at any given moment is beside the point.
I'm not falling for that. It's just a good old appeal to ignorance fallacy.oushi wrote:Can you prove that statement is not true?
It's fine if you consider yourself an authority on validity of practice and the dubious idea of realization statistics. I don't.oushi wrote:I do not know every practitioner personally, but I know about a lot of misconceptions going on in the "practice" area. And it's not about the false teachings, but misinterpretation. Result of that is fractions of a % of realized practitioners.
If Zen is dead in Japan, I doubt it is the result of too much deliberation. Huseng can probably attest to this.oushi wrote:I recall Mumon Yamada stating that for example Zen in Japan is dead. I can list many such an examples.
If deliberation is in fact the death of fruitful practice, surely it goes for the jugular when one engages in the meta-perceptive and hyper-considerate exercise of trying to distinguish (let alone influence) if one is being deliberate or not.oushi wrote:It's the whole point.
There is a lot of interesting stuff on Youtube.Zenda wrote:I was inspired by your post to look up Shinzen Young. Interesting guy. He did an interview with Buddhist Geeks.
Full link is: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on ... zen-young/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Extant material that I concern myself with (i.e., Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen) regards awakening experiences as a fairly common result of serious practice. You may or may not consider this Awakening. In Zen (I use the word cross-culturally) it is considered the beginning of it.oushi wrote:Tell me please, how many awakened people do you know? I mean, people that openly admit to be awakened. We both know Sakyamuni did that, so it is not faux-pas.
If we could somehow verify these statistics as definitive, it wouldn't tell us anything about whether deliberate practice is to blame. It would be more likely to suggest that the vast majority of practitioners do not commit enough or that awakening is more subtle than an all or nothing phenomenon. That being said, we cannot verify these statistics, so this is useless speculation.oushi wrote:I heard Shinzen Young proclaiming to be awakened. So we have two. I heard him saying that there are maybe few hundred awakened people in our times. But feel free to quote statements from any time period. According to wikipedia we have 350-500 millions followers of Buddha Dharma. If practice is effective in 1%, then we should have realized Buddhas in a number able to populate small country. Certainly you wont have problem with finding confirming quotes. Even if it is 0.1% that task shouldn't be hard. If is it below 0.001%, is deliberate practice effective or not?
Yes, a bestseller... writen by a self proclaimed master.Fu Ri Shin wrote:Extant material that I concern myself with (i.e., Kapleau's The Three Pillars of Zen) regards awakening experiences as a fairly common result of serious practice.
You know how many sucha an experiences Hakuin gathered before awakening? More then 60.Fu Ri Shin wrote:You may or may not consider this Awakening. In Zen (I use the word cross-culturally) it is considered the beginning of it.
As your approach is that from Zen perspective, I would like you to give some comments on those quotes:Fu Ri Shin wrote: It would be more likely to suggest that the vast majority of practitioners do not commit enough or that awakening is more subtle than an all or nothing phenomenon.
Linji wrote:Even though one lives on a lonely mountain peak, eats a single meal at dawn, meditates without lying down through the six periods of practice, he is only a Karma-producing man. One who gives away as alms all that he has: his head, eyes, marrow, brain; his home, wife and children; elephants and horses — the seven precious things — look, all such actions cause only suffering to body and heart, and contrary to expectation incite further sorrow
[...]
There are shaven pates who eat their fill and then sit down to do zazen. They arrest the flow (of the heart) and do not let it act. They dislike noise and seek quietude.
These are the practices of other ways.
A patriarch said: “If you stay (fix) the heart, you see quietude. If you arouse it, it beholds the outside; if you recollect it, the inside is clear. If you concentrate it, Samadhi is entered.” But all these are merely forms of activity.
Do you not know him who is right now listening to the Dharma? Why should you need to approach him by practice, ascertain him and solemnity him? He is not one whom you can approach or dignify. Moreover, if he would exalt himself, then everything would gain exaltation.
Do not be deceived.
[...]
You say you train in the Six Perfections and the Ten Thousand Practices. As I see it, they are all productive of Karma. To seek the Buddha, to seek the Dharma, those produce only Karma in hell. To seek the Bodhisattvas is again producing Karma. Reading the Sutras and Treatises also produces Karma.
[...]
Followers of the Way, there is talk of the Way to be practiced and the Dharma to be realized. Tell me, then, what Dharma is to be realized, what Way is to be practiced.
At this moment, what do you lack for your functioning? And what do you need to restore by your training?
Young students, not understanding anything, put their faith in wild fox sprites and so get entangled in their random talk and fancies such as that in the law, theory and practice must tally, to
guard against the three karmic actions and so to attain Buddhahood. Such and other discourses are as frequent as April showers.
Okay, I'll bite. I will be open to the alternative to deliberate practice. What does it involve?oushi wrote:...
Everything.Fu Ri Shin wrote:Okay, I'll bite. I will be open to the alternative to deliberate practice. What does it involve?oushi wrote:...
Sure. But "everything" ain't the same thing as:oushi wrote:Everything.
Is it?oushi wrote:ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it
Good point, good point!Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Sure. But "everything" ain't the same thing as:oushi wrote:Everything.
Is it?oushi wrote:ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it
Otherwise it would include not "ceas[ing] from his frantic looking for it".
Lately, I was thinking about that. From this statement we can perfectly see, that fulfillment equals to no desire. Beginning is the end, and the only painful part was the journey, chasing. I always thought that the joy of desirable moments must remain joyous even after enlightenment. And it does, as it is the same thing, as no desire. By giving up desires we are always joyous . Woof, what a beautiful thought.what happens when a desire is fulfilled? The desire disappears
Deliberate practice extends the time between those tiny portions of time. Those moments of fulfillment=nodesire. "Deliberate" is the only thing that divides sameness. Without deliberate actions (practice or not), there is oneness. By the illusion of "deliberate", which is actually not deliberate.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Now tell me if you can what's the difference between that process and the process of wakin up as a result of deliberate practice?
It doesn't, as lack of desire is the same as fulfillment, beginning is the end. Just drop the journey and you are there!Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:It does take a huge amount of hard sweat.
Does it now?Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:So how can we just tell everyone to get up from their cushions? Don't make sense to me.
As it's also "ain't so easy". Just add this "ain't so easy" to everything. Accept it as a part. Then everything is complete. All parts are the same facets of a diamond."Everything" ain't so easy.
I like it and I agree with it. I just don't see how most practice gets away from this. Perhaps we'd better just leave it.oushi wrote:Everything.
"The pathless path
is the path always under our feet
and since that path is always beneath us,
if we miss it, how stupid! - Longchenpa"
"Followers of the Way, if you know that fundamentally there is nothing to seek, you have settled your affairs. But because you
have little faith, you run about agitatedly, seeking your head which you think you have lost. - Linji"
Hard to go more direct. Maybe I can add that even deliberate practice is it, so even through deliberate actions we proceed on the path. Just don't take is as a shortcut, or a way of attaining realization.
"Do not be deceived. Though something can be attained by training, it only creates the Karma of rebirth and death. - Linji"
So what is the problem? Desire to attain something that we expect, and we deliberately act to make real. If if doesn't (and it is not our decision) we despair, blame ourselves (often others). Guilt appears, creating suffering. And how can we attain/become someone that we already are?
“An old master said:Yajnadatta thought he had lost his head. When he ceased from his frantic looking for it, he had nothing further to seek.”