Direct Teaching

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Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:56 am

Continuing from http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=9837&start=40


oushi wrote:
futerko wrote: your claim was that by realising one was not responsible for one's thoughts, this thereby removed guilt, expectations, and suffering, but who is the one realising this?

The same one. Having no control, has nothing to do with it. Realization is not a free act of will. If it was, half of the planet would be awakened.
futerko wrote:No one else said anything about it being difficult, painful, or harmful

Matt J wrote:It is easy to practice such a "book dharma"--- but unfortunately, practice is difficult and often painful.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche wrote:When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and
defecating.

I understand that defecating can be difficult and painful sometimes, but lets not make a rule out of it :tongue: .
futerko wrote:No, and that's because I am not teaching Dzogchen here, I am replying to the OP in terms that might make sense to them. If you think Longchenpa is appropriate reading in this case then say so.

Neither do I, although I quoted Longchenpa. I replied by showing direct teaching, which happens to be opposite to your reply. It is found all over the Buddhist world, and not only. Almost everyone posting in this topic tries to refute it, because it goes against the way they practice. Should I go with the mob, or be honest, and post what I think? And why do you so fiercely want to stop me from doing that?
futerko wrote:I made no claim to know, but I have seen the consequences of your posts on this and other sites so no prediction is necessary

What are the consequences? How do you tell they are negative? Direct teaching is never welcome, and never been. Bodhidharma was insulted, Longchenpa had to keep his teaching secret, and Jesus was crucified for preaching it. The teaching is simple, but people are f*****. Especially those that invested their lives for doing something that goes against it. They say "I practice", "I made vows", "I keep precepts", "I must be right", not being aware that all those, if not applied correctly, create hellish karma. What worse, they try to enforce it on others, and you read about frustrated people that are not able to meditate regularly, or others that feels guilty for killing bacterias in the fridge.


I don't fiercely want to stop you, you are the one refuting other people's posts and appointing yourself as the "teacher". Maybe if people knew what you were doing then they might understand better.

I also didn't say the consequences were negative, but you seem to anticipate your methods as being unwelcome, and that's unsurprising given your attitude of "people are f*****."
Rarely do people totally agree, but your style seems to be "I am right, you are wrong" so that's bound to get a certain reaction.

If "Realization is not a free act of will", and indeed, you seem to be promoting a fatalistic viewpoint, then firstly, nothing I write will come as a surprise to you, and secondly, what are you hoping to change by posting? According to you, it seems that nothing anyone says or does will make any difference anyway.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:41 am

futerko wrote:I don't fiercely want to stop you, you are the one refuting other people's posts and appointing yourself as the "teacher".

I don't need to appoint myself as a teacher, as from my perspective there is only one teacher which manifests in me, any you, and everyone else. I just play my role that I didn't even direct.
futerko wrote: Maybe if people knew what you were doing then they might understand better.

Maybe, who knows...
futerko wrote:Rarely do people totally agree, but your style seems to be "I am right, you are wrong" so that's bound to get a certain reaction.

Check my signature. I agree that my style ain't calm, but not every style need to be calm. A teaching came to my mind:
Linji wrote:I am not afraid to speak out against these teachers not of speech that is productive of Karma.
Followers of the Way, only a great teacher dares to disparage the Buddhas and patriarchs, dares to criticize everything, to defy the Teachings of the Three Baskets, and abuse immature students, and so, whether straight or crooked, find the man within.

I'm not considering myself as a great in any way, but on the other hand, I'm not stopping myself from being who I am. Running on the edge is my style. I didn't choose it. People may despise it, but they didn't make this choose either. In Zen, they use to simply hit people in the face :woohoo: .
futerko wrote:If "Realization is not a free act of will", and indeed, you seem to be promoting a fatalistic viewpoint, then firstly, nothing I write will come as a surprise to you, and secondly, what are you hoping to change by posting? According to you, it seems that nothing anyone says or does will make any difference anyway.

What I'm saying is that everything make a difference, we just don't have the power to change it. The idea that we can, gives birth to expectation, and when they are not fulfilled, guild and suffering appears.
Here is a part of one of my favorite teachings by Longchenpa:
"I determine all events and meanings,
Because no objects exist which are not me,
You are beyond perspective or meditation.
Because there does not exist any protection other then me,
You are beyond charismatic activity to be sought,
Because there is no state other then me,
You are beyond stages to cultivate.
Because in me there are, from the beginning, no obstacles,
You are beyond all obstacles; self-arising pristine awareness just is.
Because I am unborn reality itself;
You are beyond concepts of reality; subtle reality just is.
Because there is nowhere to go apart from me,
One is beyond path to traverse. "

This explanations tell us how to make "Just be your ordinary selves with nothing further to seek, relieving nature, wearing robes and eating." which is greatly stressed in Rinzai Zen, but such an explanation is not available there.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:17 am

oushi wrote:This explanations tell us how to make "Just be your ordinary selves with nothing further to seek, relieving nature, wearing robes and eating." which is greatly stressed in Rinzai Zen, but such an explanation is not available there.


Is there no difference then between one who cultivates sublime knowing and one who simply does nothing?
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby catmoon » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:26 am

Although the actions may be the same, the internal state is different.

With the shift in internal state, two paths are possible. One sees no more preferences and no reason to be different than before. Another has serenity and compassion and these motivate them to beneficial actions, things not done previously.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:31 am

futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:This explanations tell us how to make "Just be your ordinary selves with nothing further to seek, relieving nature, wearing robes and eating." which is greatly stressed in Rinzai Zen, but such an explanation is not available there.


Is there no difference then between one who cultivates sublime knowing and one who simply does nothing?

Straight to the Holly Grail huh?
Longchenpa even said that there is no difference between greatly moral practitioner and serial killer. But that is something you realize by cultivation. There is nothing to chase after, and nothing to run from, as wrong doesn't exist. You can realize it right now if your karmic roots are ready, or you will need to cultivate you understanding through practice. As Buddha is always present, this practice is taking place all the time, and all sentient beings are guaranteed to be liberated, although there are no sentient beings to liberate.

catmoon wrote:Although the actions may be the same, the internal state is different.

With the shift in internal state, two paths are possible. One sees no more preferences and no reason to be different than before. Another has serenity and compassion and these motivate them to beneficial actions, things not done previously.


From the High Seat, the master said: "One is on the way for eons without leaving his house; one leaves his house without
being on the way. Which one is worthy to receive the offerings of men and gods?"

This is the same path, all the way. Which one is worthy? The One.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:41 am

oushi wrote:...or you will need to cultivate you understanding through practice.


This is the part that you seem to be dismissing.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:53 am

futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:...or you will need to cultivate you understanding through practice.


This is the part that you seem to be dismissing.

"The everyday practice of dzogchen is just everyday life itself. Since the undeveloped state does
not exist, there is no need to behave in any special way or attempt to attain anything above and
beyond what you actually are. There should be no feeling of striving to reach some "amazing
goal" or "advanced state.
[..]
When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and
defecating. It should not become a specialized or formal event, bloated with seriousness and
solemnity.
-Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche"

"Deliberate action deceives", deliberate practice deceives. It's not about practicing this or that, this way or that way, it's about knowing what practice is. This way practice is effortless no matter what we do, not difficult and painful. Who is the good uncle now? Wasn't I the compassionate one, although attacked from all directions? :smile: Do you think I would have strength to go through those battles basing only on my ideas?
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:58 am

oushi wrote:...it's about knowing what practice is.


I agree, I just fail to see how your posts point in that direction.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby Fu Ri Shin » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:07 pm

oushi wrote:"Deliberate action deceives", deliberate practice deceives.

What are you addressing here? What is this deliberate and deceitful practice?
"Once delusion is extinguished, your wisdom naturally arises and you don’t differentiate suffering and joy. Actually, this joy and this suffering, they are the same."

— Chinese hermit, Amongst White Clouds
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:09 pm

futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:...it's about knowing what practice is.


I agree, I just fail to see how your posts point in that direction.

It is not easy to direct such a heavy cannon in the right direction when bullets are flying above your head.

Fu Ri Shin wrote:
oushi wrote:"Deliberate action deceives", deliberate practice deceives.

What are you addressing here? What is this deliberate and deceitful practice?

Every practice that has craving as its root. That is why we have hundreds of millions practitioners, and maybe few hundreds awakened.
Last edited by oushi on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:10 pm

oushi wrote:When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and
defecating. It should not become a specialized or formal event, bloated with seriousness and
solemnity.
-Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche"



May I know from which link do you quote that?

Really excellent advice from DKR.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:53 pm

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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby Zenda » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:54 pm

The source of this teaching was debated on Dharma Wheel awhile back: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7286

Hope this helps!

I think that saying things like "there's no difference from a greatly moral practitioner and a serial killer" might mislead people into thinking that they are resting in the natural state and that their actions don't matter when in reality they're just spacing out or deluding themselves and are actually still at the mercy of their own habitual patterns and lack of understanding. A little less hyperbole might be more helpful...

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth...
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:17 pm

What you describe here has actually been my path for almost 30 years now. The resistance you describe…

"Almost everyone posting in this topic tries to refute it, because it goes against the way they practice." - "Bodhidharma was insulted, Longchenpa had to keep his teaching secret, and Jesus was crucified for preaching it. The teaching is simple, but people are f*****. Especially those that invested their lives for doing something that goes against it."

…applies not only to teachings, but to behaviour, and therefore this isn’t actually a path free from hardship (although if you take it seriously, then hardship is in fact no different from it being easy).

I would also add that (in retrospect), I do feel that there were times when some guidance would've made my practice easier, and that's exactly why I brought up the idea of cultivating sublime knowing.

Zenda wrote:I think that saying things like "there's no difference from a greatly moral practitioner and a serial killer" might mislead people into thinking that they are resting in the natural state and that their actions don't matter when in reality they're just spacing out or deluding themselves and are actually still at the mercy of their own habitual patterns and lack of understanding.

Dudjom Lingpa writes,
- "But from beginningless time you have not realized this on the strength of your own abilities, and so you have wandered in samsara. Be aware of the fact that it is by studying and training that you can come to realize emptiness - the view that is accord with all tantras, explanatory commentaries, and pith instructions... The key point is that you cultivate these two aspects of sublime knowing in your mindstream initially as understanding, later on as personal experience, and finally as the attainment of indwelling confidence."

Therefore, when I write, "You start to realise that you are the one who is ultimately in control of your mental and emotional state, and so can start taking responsibility for that." I know full well that there is no you, no one in control, no mental or emotional state, and no responsibility to be taken, however I am also aware that is a "heavy cannon" to fire at someone who is totally unfamiliar with such ideas.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:25 pm

futerko wrote:What you describe here has actually been my path for almost 30 years now. The resistance you describe…

"Almost everyone posting in this topic tries to refute it, because it goes against the way they practice." - "Bodhidharma was insulted, Longchenpa had to keep his teaching secret, and Jesus was crucified for preaching it. The teaching is simple, but people are f*****. Especially those that invested their lives for doing something that goes against it."

…applies not only to teachings, but to behaviour, and therefore this isn’t actually a path free from hardship (although if you take it seriously, then hardship is in fact no different from it being easy).

I would also add that (in retrospect), I do feel that there were times when some guidance would've made my practice easier, and that's exactly why I brought up the idea of cultivating sublime knowing.

For me, hardship comes from peoples contempt. Just got banned on another forum... As I am not blind, I was perfectly aware of this hardship all the way, but I couldn't stop. Like in this zen story:
Two monks were washing their bowls in the river when they noticed a scorpion that was drowning. One monk immediately scooped it up and set it upon the bank. In the process he was stung. He went back to washing his bowl and again the scorpion fell in. The monk saved the scorpion and was again stung. The other monk asked him, "Friend, why do you continue to save the scorpion when you know it's nature is to sting?"
"Because," the monk replied, "to save it is my nature."

Although, I did not make any vows to liberate anyone.

initially as understanding, later on as personal experience, and finally as the attainment of indwelling confidence."

That is the perfect order. I was not lucky enough to go according to it... or maybe I was lucky to start from experience. Who knows.
futerko wrote:I know full well that there is no you, no one in control, no mental or emotional state, and no responsibility to be taken, however I am also aware that is a "heavy cannon" to fire at someone who is totally unfamiliar with such ideas.

I did it few weeks ago, to a person completely not familiar to any spiritual path. It worked out well. It is thousand times easier to do it live, but still I think that it may make a difference even posted on forum.

I am happy to know we both take is as a play of reality, and nothing personal. :namaste:
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby Fu Ri Shin » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:35 pm

oushi wrote:Every practice that has craving as its root. That is why we have hundreds of millions practitioners, and maybe few hundreds awakened.

This doesn't answer my question. My question aside, it doesn't make sense either. One can't verify the number of awakened people, so there's no proof of practice with craving as its root that can follow.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:33 am

Fu Ri Shin wrote:
oushi wrote:Every practice that has craving as its root. That is why we have hundreds of millions practitioners, and maybe few hundreds awakened.

This doesn't answer my question.

It does. Why do people practice?
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby Fu Ri Shin » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:57 am

oushi wrote:It does. Why do people practice?

Okay, you assume the vast majority of practice is rooted in craving and therefore cannot come to fruition. Good luck substantiating that.
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby oushi » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:57 am

Fu Ri Shin wrote:
oushi wrote:It does. Why do people practice?

Okay, you assume the vast majority of practice is rooted in craving and therefore cannot come to fruition. Good luck substantiating that.

It will come to fruition all the time as everything is meditation, and everything is fruition, but it won't work as a means of liberation. It's like practicing space grabbing. People will say all kinds of good thing about such a practice. Better health, focus, concentration... like today with common "meditation practice". Can you grab space? Practice of being in it starts when you know you can't leave it. As long as you want to grab it, it's rooted in craving. In other words, you practice craving. I cannot say that practicing space grabbing is wrong way of being in the space. Everyone is in the space, so no one can be brought to it, or leave it. That is the starting point of liberation practice. From that moment you can do any kind of practice, whether it is sitting, chanting, visualizating... without craving. Only then karma wont accumulate, and will be released with every action.


"Even though one lives on a lonely mountain peak, eats a single meal at dawn, meditates without lying down through the six periods of practice, he is only a Karma-producing man. One who gives away as alms all that he has: his head, eyes, marrow, brain; his home, wife and children; elephants and horses — the seven precious things — look, all such actions cause only suffering to body and heart, and contrary to expectation incite further sorrow. Far better it is to have nothing further to seek, to be simple and plain.
[..]
Followers of the Way, if you want to become Buddha, do not follow the ten thousand things.
When the heart rises, the ten thousand things arise too. When the heart is stilled, the manifold things cease. And when the heart does not rise, the ten thousand things are without blame. In the world and beyond the world, neither Buddha nor Dharma manifest themselves, nor do they disappear.
Though things exist, they are only as names and words, sentences and catch phrases to attract little children; or expedient remedies for treating diseases, superficially revealed as names and phrases.
- Linji "
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Re: Direct Teaching

Postby futerko » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:15 am

"Verily there was no forumula by which the Tathāgata attained the consummation of incomparable enlightenment."

— Diamond Sūtra, Ch. 17
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