Expectations and progress

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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:50 am

They are signs of progress.

For example dreams.
You can read that in Padmashambava's teaching, like in Treasures from Juniper Ridge".
Karma Chagme - "A spacious path to freedom"

There are many distinct dreams like appearing naked or vomitting blood, or bathing with blood, etc.

YOu can also notice in your daily life, for example you will feel light - Padmashambava - Natural Liberation.

Basically, there are signs.

Whether those signs are important or not, that is second issue. But, for sure there are signs.
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I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
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I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:12 am

Andrew108 wrote:
oushi wrote:Actually, it's the other way around. You realise you are not in control of you mental states, and not responsible for them. Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering.

What is the right direction to reality? The right direction is no particular direction, that is why it encompass all directions. Without chasing the right path, you are always meditating.


This doesn't really help. You are trying to be smart. It's like using a bomb to dig a hole when all you really need is a spade.
The bomb is the word 'actually'. See how you want to be right even whilst suggesting there is no right? I must have done the same as you and I regret it. I regret trying to be smart.

And I regret nothing, especially me not being in accord with expectations of others. According to you, the only thing needed was a spade. I think differently. Should I regret only because we differ? Bomb would be a series of quotes leaving no space for discussion. :stirthepot:

By judging me, aren't you trying to be smart? :smile: We can go personal or stick to the topic. You can always refute my view, if you can, and I wont say it's to "true" for a forum so it doesn't count. Go on!

Jyoti wrote:
futerko wrote:
Are you saying that trekchö is uneccessary?


He mentioned one path, trekcho is the one path from beginning to end.

Jyoti

Yes. If one doesn't see the one path, he sees all range of paths and practices to choose from, and validates those paths basing on opinions of others, not being aware that he didn't leave the one path even for a moment. Who is the one that picks and chooses, who is the one always on the path? One has all kinds of expectations, the other just progresses without even moving. During trekcho, which one stops? If you can perceive them as separate, you cannot see the second one.
A koan came to my mind:
From the High Seat, the master said: "One is on the way for eons without leaving his house; one leaves his house without
being on the way. Which one is worthy to receive the offerings of men and gods?"
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:23 am

Music wrote:Buddhists often say don't expect, just practice. But without expectations, isnt it hard to know if we are making progress? It is confusing. They say just keep meditating. Fine, but how do know if we are moving in the right direction?


-----------------
:smile:
Bob Dylan said it is his song, "Homesick Subterreanean Blues", I believe.
He said, "You don't need to be a weatherman to tell the way the wind is blowing".
And you don't, do you?
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in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:05 pm

Music wrote:Buddhists often say don't expect, just practice. But without expectations, isnt it hard to know if we are making progress? It is confusing. They say just keep meditating. Fine, but how do know if we are moving in the right direction?


In ones continual practice, including meditation, one should notice 'progress' in their own 'outlook' and reaction to situations in thier lives. I for one have seen some great progress in the short time I've been practicing. My life and the daily situations/interactions has become much more calm, for lack of a better term.
I didn't expect anything when I started, and I also don't 'expect' this 'great progress' to continue at such a quick pace. But I will keep vigilant in my practice, with the understanding it has already helped and figure it will keep helping.
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:22 pm

oushi wrote:
futerko wrote:You start to realise that you are the one who is ultimately in control of your mental and emotional state, and so can start taking responsibility for that.

Actually, it's the other way around. You realise you are not in control of you mental states, and not responsible for them. Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering.


If one isn't in control of their mental states then one is insane. Mental states control our body, speech and mind.
Guilt??? As I remember one person saying, guilt is a Catholic/religious thing.

Music wrote:Fine, but how do know if we are moving in the right direction?

What is the right direction to reality? The right direction is no particular direction, that is why it encompass all directions.


What is reality?
The right direction is the Path to Enlightenment, or so I have come to understand. (see second quote in my signature)

Without chasing the right path, you are always meditating.


This makes no sense. How can you be on a path if:
The right direction is no particular direction

Each path has a direction.
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:26 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:If one isn't in control of their mental states then one is insane

What does naming change? If you are in control of your mental states, you have to be insane to suffer deliberately... why wont you choose to always be happy?

Guilt??? As I remember one person saying, guilt is a Catholic/religious thing.

Since when reality is based on something that one person said? Does only Catholics/religious people feel guilt?

The right direction is the Path to Enlightenment, or so I have come to understand. (see second quote in my signature)

Every path is the path to enlightenment.
Dave The Seeker wrote:
Without chasing the right path, you are always meditating.

This makes no sense. How can you be on a path if:
The right direction is no particular direction


Each path has a direction.

That's the whole point, to stop seeking it, as you are always on it.
"The pathless path
is the path always under our feet
and since that path is always beneath us,
if we miss it, how stupid! - Longchenpa"
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Matt J » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:21 pm

The very basis of Buddhist practice is practice. Without practice, Buddhist study simply becomes an intellectual exercise, a way to rearrange the inner map. It is easy to practice such a "book dharma"--- but unfortunately, practice is difficult and often painful. Our habits are deeply ingrained even into our body.

The type of thing being preached here is very much in the line of Western neo-advaita (http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/trad_neo/trad_neo.htm). It is very simple and modern to take the easy parts and reject the hard parts.

The Buddha's recipe is clearly laid out: Right view, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and meditation.

oushi wrote:Either you know nihilism from you own experience, or you practiced according to this recipe. I think, you know neither, and you practice needs to mature. If it does, you will find this recipe in all practices and schools from Dzogchen to Zen, and all religions from Christianity to Dao.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Indrajala » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:25 pm

Matt J wrote:The very basis of Buddhist practice is practice. Without practice, Buddhist study simply becomes an intellectual exercise, a way to rearrange the inner map. It is easy to practice such a "book dharma"--- but unfortunately, practice is difficult and often painful. Our habits are deeply ingrained even into our body.


Study is practice. It is cultivation of prajñā. Being able to better discern reality properly, you are in a position to address the problems of the mind in a practical and well-equipped manner. It is more than an intellectual exercise.
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:43 pm

Matt J wrote:The type of thing being preached here is very much in the line of Western neo-advaita It is very simple and modern to take the easy parts and reject the hard parts.

I can flood you with quotes of masters you appreciate, directly confirming what I said, just name them. The thing is that you know that, but you just don't want to see years of sitting on the cushion as wasted. Don't worry they weren't, but don't think that by doing this kind of practice you are ahead, even by an inch.
but unfortunately, practice is difficult and often painful.

It is sad to hear. I remember Longchenpa stating in one of his teachings that it's "blissfully easy", and I agree with that.
The Buddha's recipe is clearly laid out: Right view, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and meditation.

Right view is precisely what I talk about. Everything else comes from it. Without the right view, you will only produce more karma.
Linji wrote:Even though one lives on a lonely mountain peak, eats a single meal at dawn, meditates without lying down through the six periods of practice, he is only a Karma-producing man.


The very basis of Buddhist practice is practice

And the very core is to understand what practice is. If you play only with basics of Buddhism, how can you understand the core of it?
Last edited by oushi on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby futerko » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:53 pm

oushi wrote:
Matt J wrote:The type of thing being preached here is very much in the line of Western neo-advaita It is very simple and modern to take the easy parts and reject the hard parts.

I can flood you with quotes of masters you appreciate, directly confirming what I said, just name them. The thing is that you know that, but you just don't want to see years of sitting on the cushion as wasted. Don't worry they weren't, but don't think that by doing this kind of practice you are ahead, even by an inch.


There's only one person who thinks he is ahead here, and it's not Matt. Personally I find it reminds me of the writings of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, maybe oushi is code for oshō? :tongue:
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:58 pm

futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:
Matt J wrote:The type of thing being preached here is very much in the line of Western neo-advaita It is very simple and modern to take the easy parts and reject the hard parts.

I can flood you with quotes of masters you appreciate, directly confirming what I said, just name them. The thing is that you know that, but you just don't want to see years of sitting on the cushion as wasted. Don't worry they weren't, but don't think that by doing this kind of practice you are ahead, even by an inch.


There's only one person who thinks he is ahead here, and it's not Matt. Personally I find it reminds me of the writings of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, maybe oushi is code for oshō? :tongue:

Sun is black. If you don't refute it then you have to agree. If you refute it, then I will say you swagger.
:focus:

PS. I never read Osho writings, as I was to busy reading real masters. Apparently you were intrigued by Rajneesh approach.
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:20 pm

oushi wrote:
Dave The Seeker wrote:If one isn't in control of their mental states then one is insane

you have to be insane to suffer deliberately... why wont you choose to always be happy?


Do you suffer? Until one is Enlightened, one suffers. Or so I have understood.

Guilt??? As I remember one person saying, guilt is a Catholic/religious thing.

Since when reality is based on something that one person said? Does only Catholics/religious people feel guilt?


No, but feeling guilt isn't a good thing. One should be able to move past that feeling and do their best not to do things to make them feel that way again. Right actions.

The right direction is the Path to Enlightenment, or so I have come to understand. (see second quote in my signature)

Every path is the path to enlightenment.


Are you sure of that? There are many paths that could lead one farther from Enlightenment.

Dave The Seeker wrote:
Without chasing the right path, you are always meditating.

This makes no sense. How can you be on a path if:
The right direction is no particular direction


Each path has a direction.

That's the whole point, to stop seeking it, as you are always on it.
"The pathless path
is the path always under our feet
and since that path is always beneath us,
if we miss it, how stupid! - Longchenpa"
[/quote]

Yes one is always on a 'path'. But is the path the proper way to be traveling?
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:48 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:
oushi wrote:
Dave The Seeker wrote:If one isn't in control of their mental states then one is insane

you have to be insane to suffer deliberately... why wont you choose to always be happy?


Do you suffer? Until one is Enlightened, one suffers. Or so I have understood.

You didn't answer the question. Can you control your mental states or not?
Dave The Seeker wrote:No, but feeling guilt isn't a good thing. One should be able to move past that feeling and do their best not to do things to make them feel that way again. Right actions.

Another miraculous mental freedom. It appears that people have all their mental problems because the want to have them. It is enough to simply move on. How? By "Right actions". And what actions are those? Can you describe it to a mother that harmed her infant by not holding it properly? Oh sorry, she will only feel guild if she's Catholic or religious...
Are you sure of that? There are many paths that could lead one farther from Enlightenment.

Do you know where Enlightenment is located?
Yes one is always on a 'path'. But is the path the proper way to be traveling?

I don't get it. What are other ways? And where do you want to travel?
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby futerko » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:48 pm

oushi wrote:Sun is black. If you don't refute it then you have to agree. If you refute it, they I will say you swagger.
:focus:


Back to topic?!? You haven't yet posted anything on topic and your repeated attempts to grasp the ungraspable only come across as self-serving. What better demonstration of the dangers of a degenerate path.

oushi wrote:PS. I never read Osho writings, as I was to busy reading real masters. Apparently you were intrigued by Rajneesh approach.


According to your own analysis, your distinction between real masters and fakers is dualistic, and being "busy reading" contradicts the foundations of the method you advocate.
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:59 pm

futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:Sun is black. If you don't refute it then you have to agree. If you refute it, they I will say you swagger.
:focus:


Back to topic?!? You haven't yet posted anything on topic and your repeated attempts to grasp the ungraspable only come across as self-serving. What better demonstration of the dangers of a degenerate path.

Almost everything I wrote is about expectations and progress. "You realise you are not in control of you mental states, and not responsible for them. Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering.". Read the OP and you will see that through my explanations I answered all questions from it. Why there shouldn't be expectations, what is practice, meditation, and what is the right direction.
futerko wrote:According to your own analysis, your distinction between real masters and fakers is dualistic, and being "busy reading" contradicts the foundations of the method you advocate.

Enlighten me, and explain what is the method I advocate?
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:08 pm

oushi wrote:You didn't answer the question. Can you control your mental states or not?


To some extent yes, I try to be as happy as I can in any situation. But that is not always possible, due to hindrances.
Are you always happy?

Dave The Seeker wrote:No, but feeling guilt isn't a good thing. One should be able to move past that feeling and do their best not to do things to make them feel that way again. Right actions.

Another miraculous mental freedom. It appears that people have all their mental problems because the want to have them. It is enough to simply move on. How? By "Right actions". And what actions are those? Can you describe it to a mother that harmed her infant by not holding it properly? Oh sorry, she will only feel guild if she's Catholic or religious...


That example is a moot point, if she didn't know how to hold the child that would be ignorance, not wrong action.
Are you sure of that? There are many paths that could lead one farther from Enlightenment.

Do you know where Enlightenment is located?


No, please tell me as you seem to think you know. :coffee:

Yes one is always on a 'path'. But is the path the proper way to be traveling?

I don't get it. What are other ways? And where do you want to travel?


Away from this discussion. :hi:
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:
oushi wrote:You didn't answer the question. Can you control your mental states or not?


To some extent yes, I try to be as happy as I can in any situation. But that is not always possible, due to hindrances.
Are you always happy?

This very trying is the cause of suffering. It's called craving, and is described in the second noble truth.
Am I always happy? No.
Dave The Seeker wrote:No, please tell me as you seem to think you know.

"There is not a single state which is not this vast state of presence.
It is the site and home of everything. -Longchenpa"
And from a different perspective:
"Followers of the Way, as I see it, you are not different from the Buddha- Linji"
Do you still think you need to travel to get there?
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby futerko » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:12 pm

oushi wrote:
futerko wrote:
oushi wrote:Sun is black. If you don't refute it then you have to agree. If you refute it, they I will say you swagger.
:focus:


Back to topic?!? You haven't yet posted anything on topic and your repeated attempts to grasp the ungraspable only come across as self-serving. What better demonstration of the dangers of a degenerate path.

Almost everything I wrote is about expectations and progress. "You realise you are not in control of you mental states, and not responsible for them. Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering.". Read the OP and you will see that through my explanations I answered all questions from it. Why there shouldn't be expectations, what is practice, meditation, and what is the right direction.
futerko wrote:According to your own analysis, your distinction between real masters and fakers is dualistic, and being "busy reading" contradicts the foundations of the method you advocate.

Enlighten me, and explain what is the method I advocate?


"Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering." - and who has facilitated this change thereby taking responsibility for their own mental and emotional state? Not only is this circular, adding nothing to my original reply but confusion, but also as Andrew wrote, its looks like an attempt to be smart rather than helpful.

The OP asked about the right direction to which your answer was, "The right direction is no particular direction, that is why it encompass all directions." - which may well be useful to someone locked on to seeking enlightenment as a goal, but in the context of someone new to Buddhism asking about some way to orient their meditation it comes across as unhelpful and an attempt to just look "smart".

Longchenpa felt the need to write 250 pages but you condense it into just a few lines so you risk serious misinterpretation by taking those quotations out of context.

Technically you may be right on some points, but given the context it would seem inappropriate to take such an approach. You may think that you can communicate absolute wisdom using so much discursive language, but can result with you writing, "for me, reality is like a great pearl" only then to write, "To say it is like a thing is to miss the point."

PS. In astronomy a black body is one which does not reflect light but just radiates, so yes, the sun is black.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby oushi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:45 pm

futerko wrote:"Without guilt, there are no expectations, and no suffering." - and who has facilitated this change thereby taking responsibility for their own mental and emotional state? Not only is this circular, adding nothing to my original reply but confusion, but also as Andrew wrote, its looks like an attempt to be smart rather than helpful.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. Could you emend?
futerko wrote:The OP asked about the right direction to which your answer was, "The right direction is no particular direction, that is why it encompass all directions." - which may well be useful to someone locked on to seeking enlightenment as a goal, but in the context of someone new to Buddhism asking about some way to orient their meditation it comes across as unhelpful and an attempt to just look "smart"

That is your view, mine is different. Taking advantage of the "beginner mind", a solid basis can be developed, making all kinds of spiritual practice easy, not "difficult and often painful". Hitting the great wall of doubt is just one way of practicing. I present something different, something that people may not be aware of. Do you see it as harmful? If it's not valid, refute it, otherwise don't play good uncle that knows it's unhelpful. Aren't you trying to be "smarter" then me, just for the sake of being smarter? How do you know it's unhelpful? I doubt that you understand it at all, but it doesn't stop you from judging it as unhelpful.
futerko wrote:Longchenpa felt the need to write 250 pages but you condense it into just a few lines so you risk serious misinterpretation by taking those quotations out of context.

What are you trying to say, that I should post entire 250 pages every time I want to refer to his teachings? Those 250 pages cover all sort of different spheres and phases which are not needed here. Can you find, in those 250 pages, confirmation of the approach you suggested on the first page of this topic?
futerko wrote:Technically you may be right on some points, but given the context it would seem inappropriate to take such an approach

Once again, how do you know that? Can you predict the consequences, or you are just trying to look "smart"?
futerko wrote:PS. In astronomy a black body is one which does not reflect light but just radiates, so yes, the sun is black.

I'm not good in astronomy, so tell me, what absorption has to do with emission?
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Re: Expectations and progress

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:33 pm

oushi wrote:And I regret nothing, especially me not being in accord with expectations of others. According to you, the only thing needed was a spade. I think differently. Should I regret only because we differ? Bomb would be a series of quotes leaving no space for discussion. :stirthepot:

By judging me, aren't you trying to be smart? :smile: We can go personal or stick to the topic. You can always refute my view, if you can, and I wont say it's to "true" for a forum so it doesn't count. Go on!

What is your view? Some vague Dzoghchenism? These days I'm respecting Buddhists who hold precepts. Do you hold any precepts?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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