Dharma Wheel

Whatever that substance is.

Music wrote:Whatever that substance is.

The universe and everything it are made of six elements:

Earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.

The universe is a result of the collective karma of all beings.

Huseng wrote:The universe is a result of the collective karma of all beings.

That is what makes it [collective karma], but that is not what it is made of i.e. like a potter and clay.

Music wrote:Whatever that substance is.

Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness.

There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.

It can only form if you have an idea about this universe.

But, if you can drop off of this idea of universe, you won't see any of them.

If you can drop off the idea of water when you are standing in front of waterfall, there is no water there.

If you say that is water element, that is only you who say so.
If your friend say that is also water element, that is also only your friend who say so.

Hungry ghost doesn't see water element, they see blood.
Fish doesn't see water element, they see house.
God doesn't see water element, they see nectar.

If you can drop off all those idea in front of waterfall, you won't see any water there, any substance there.

These 5 elements and consciousness are just trap of ignorance.

DarwidHalim wrote:There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.

It can only form if you have an idea about this universe.

But, if you can drop off of this idea of universe, you won't see any of them.

If you can drop off the idea of water when you are standing in front of waterfall, there is no water there.

If you say that is water element, that is only you who say so.
If your friend say that is also water element, that is also only your friend who say so.

Hungry ghost doesn't see water element, they see blood.
Fish doesn't see water element, they see house.
God doesn't see water element, they see nectar.

To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism. Whatever one experiences irrespective of conceptual content is not outside of the subject and object of perception, this mechanism of subject and object of perception is the mechanism of consciousness.

As for blood and nectar, their form of manifestation is of water, thus they belong to the water element. The reason hungry ghost see water blood and gods see water as nectar is due to the principle of collective karma and their result, where beings with their storehouse consciousness being perfumed with similar seeds will be born in similar realm, sharing similar vision.

If you can drop off all those idea in front of waterfall, you won't see any water there, any substance there.

These 5 elements and consciousness are just trap of ignorance.

You will still hear the sound of waterfall, and if your body touches the water, it will feel cold and the contact sensation of the water molecules. These sensory perceptions are not make up of idea, since without actively thinking about the idea, one also will not be able to avoid these sensory perceptions.

Ignorance here specially means one has no idea how to classify phenomena that appear in the form of water element or consciousness element. Or is confusing idea as similar to perceptions.

Jyoti wrote: To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism.

Okay, then how about this:

Jyoti wrote:Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness

To assert consciousness itself, doesn't it lead to another end - existence?

The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness. Even the elements like water, fire, earth, wind, consciousness and space emerge from it. In Taoist cosmology also, first there was Wuji (Void), then it split into Yin and Yang, and finally came the five elements.

Emptiness is still not a substance though. But universe is still made up from it.

Tiger wrote:The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness.

So, is emptiness a substance?

DarwidHalim wrote:

Tiger wrote:The whole universe is made up of only one substance and that is emptiness.

So, is emptiness a substance?

Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it. But then, is the universe real?

Tiger wrote: Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it. But then, is the universe real?

Define "real" please. It can have so many meanings and imho is highly subjective.

Tiger wrote: Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it.

This is a self-contradiction statement.

DarwidHalim wrote:

Tiger wrote: Unsubstantial substance (Substance-less substance) would be a good name for it.

This is a self-contradiction statement.

Question: I do not take the four [dharmas] as constituting earth. It is simply because of the four dharmas that the dharma of earth is produced. This "earth" dwells among these four dharmas.

Response: If it was the case that earth was produced from four dharmas, then earth would be different from the four dharmas in the same way that when a father and mother give birth to a son, the son is then different from the father and mother. If it was the case that earth was different from these four dharmas, then in the same manner as the eye perceives forms, the nose is aware of smells, the tongue is aware of tastes, and the body is aware of touchables, there should additionally exist yet another different sense faculty and a yet another different associated consciousness which perceive [the existence of earth]. If there is no additional different sense faculty and [associated] consciousness which perceive [the existence of earth], then there would be no earth [produced in the way you posit].

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I think the same reasoning applies to your question. Essentially no element(s) can be said to create a substance because of it.

DarwidHalim wrote:

Jyoti wrote: To negate consciousness itself will only lead to nihilism.

Okay, then how about this:

Jyoti wrote:Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness

To assert consciousness itself, doesn't it lead to another end - existence?

In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.

Jyoti

Jyoti wrote: In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.

Since you also assert consciousness doesn't possess substance, why you still say consciousness exists?

DarwidHalim wrote:

Jyoti wrote: In Buddhism, the word 'existence' of the basis/ground is not a problem, the problem is when the mere appearance of object is taken as real and possessing substance.

Since you also assert consciousness doesn't possess substance, why you still say consciousness exists?

The storehouse consciousness itself is the body of consciousness, so its existence cannot negated, also it is the basis from which the process of dependent-origination can persist. The storehouse consciousness itself is without an external support or basis, because of this, it is the support and the basis of everything related to the individual. Even the seeds of the storehouse consciousness, they are not newly created but are innate part of the storehouse consciousness, these seeds are stored as potential (positive or negative) of the individual, and take effects after being perfumed through the agent (means) of the 7 consciousnesses. Since the seeds are innate, they cannot be render as conditional, false or non-existent.

Jyoti wrote:

Music wrote:Whatever that substance is.

Consciousness (the body) and the seed of consciousness (means). The five elements do not exist apart from consciousness, the manifestation of all phenomena internal and external is due to the perfuming of the various seeds within consciousness.

Conventionally speaking, even in Yogacara, the universe is made of five elements plus consciousness, the so called sadadhātu.

DarwidHalim wrote:There is no substance in this universe, not even fire, water, earth, space, wind, and consciousness.

Conventionally speaking, even in Madhyamaka, the universe is made of five elements plus consciousness, the so called sadadhātu.

Jyoti wrote: The storehouse consciousness itself is the body of consciousness, so its existence cannot negated, also it is the basis from which the process of dependent-origination can persist. ...... . Since the seeds are innate, they cannot be render as conditional, false or non-existent.

Where is that storehouse?