Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:26 pm

Hi Ikkyu

Ikkyu wrote:Here's something interesting. In the Kama Sutta the Buddha states the following:

"If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow."

...

"So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore."


That's indirect, implied, or provisional; not definitive.

It is said that Buddha Shakyamuni himself taught the Guhyasamaja Tantra and that he is also one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers; so if we read between the lines, what the Buddha is saying there is that if one loses Ojas, Thigle, or Bodhicitta, then the fire goes out so to speak.

In other words, one actually can skillfully engage in the sexual act according to the Dharma, that is without losing Virya or Virility (Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta).

By losing Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta because of sexual desires, Bliss (Virya/Virility) diminishes.

Therefore if in the literal sexual act between woman and man, we do not lose it—or at least not the pure part—then we stay strong and virile for walking the Path, instead of succumbing to sexual desires.
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby oldbob » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:32 pm

Ikkyu wrote:Here's something interesting. In the Kama Sutta the Buddha states the following:

"If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow."

...

"So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore."



Perhaps there is cause for contemplation.

no sex
no - no sex
no considering
no -no considering
no vulgar
no - no vulgar
no Buddhist
no - no Buddhist
no vows
no - no vows
no desire
no - no desire

no etc.
no - no etc.

allows all to be FREED in the beyond beyond of BODHI.

Maybe we need to ask a different question?
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Wesley1982 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:20 pm

I have a tendency to identify sexuality with racial purity..
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:25 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:I have a tendency to identify sexuality with racial purity..

Er, okay...

Are you sure you are on the right forum?
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Bonsai Doug » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:31 pm

Yeah... that one threw me also. :thinking:
Now having obtained a precious human body,
I do not have the luxury of remaining on a distracted path.

~ Tibetan Book of the Dead
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:51 am

About my previous post:

Lhug-Pa wrote:...what the Buddha is saying there is that if one loses Ojas, Thigle, or Bodhicitta, then the fire goes out so to speak.


Maybe the fire going out is not the best example, at first glance, considering that Nirvana is said to literally mean 'the fire of the passions is extinguished' or something like that.

What I mean is that if we lose the pure part of the seed (Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta), then we lose Virya and shorten our life; and Virya is the positive fire or energy that we need in order to extinguish the negative fire of the afflictions; and Virya is also necessary for long life and for attaining Nirvana and/or the Knowledge of the Natural State where Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable.
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Dave The Seeker » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:07 am

Wesley1982 wrote:I have a tendency to identify sexuality with racial purity..


I have to agree, as long as the sexual activity is with someone in the human race it's purely good.
That animal stuff is really wrong!!!! :rolling:


Kindest wishes, Dave
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby greentara » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:07 am

Huseng, If you're ripe , the vasana's and urges will just drop off, the interest won't be there. I remember reading Ajhan Chah considered sex 'vulgar'. I think that's very much part of the forest monastic understanding and outlook on the subject.
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:16 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Hi Ikkyu

Ikkyu wrote:Here's something interesting. In the Kama Sutta the Buddha states the following:

"If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow."

...

"So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore."


That's indirect, implied, or provisional; not definitive.

It is said that Buddha Shakyamuni himself taught the Guhyasamaja Tantra and that he is also one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers; so if we read between the lines, what the Buddha is saying there is that if one loses Ojas, Thigle, or Bodhicitta, then the fire goes out so to speak.

In other words, one actually can skillfully engage in the sexual act according to the Dharma, that is without losing Virya or Virility (Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta).

By losing Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta because of sexual desires, Bliss (Virya/Virility) diminishes.

Therefore if in the literal sexual act between woman and man, we do not lose it—or at least not the pure part—then we stay strong and virile for walking the Path, instead of succumbing to sexual desires.

As good an expression of the fear that sexuality induces in those thought is shaped by the ancient Indian life -negative stance as any that I have read... :roll:
No one...no God or Deva not the Universe or long ago Gautama cares if you blow your wad. :lol:
The whole point is the nature of the relationship. Not voodoo physiology.

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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:25 pm

Just to add in view of the the fact that the title of the thread is specific to Buddhists.
Some forms of Buddhism do see sexual activity as vulgar. One response to that is a whole complex of yogic practices aimed at stopping emission of semen. Because " every sperm is sacred ".

However no such considerations apply in Dzogchen where ejaculation is not seen as an issue per se at all.

Dont however take my word for that. Check it out.

:namaste:
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:37 pm

Simon E. wrote:As good an expression of the fear that sexuality induces in those thought is shaped by the ancient Indian life -negative stance as any that I have read... :roll:


Not fear, just physiology; and awareness of the Deities, Nadis, Pranas & Vayus that reside in the Vajra Body.

Maybe the ancients knew some things that the contemporary followers of the religion of scientism (credit to Dechen Norbu for this term ;) ) don't know about.

I would bet that many scientism fanatics would scoff at teachings on Nadis, Prana, Vayu, Chakras, etc.


Simon E. wrote:No one...no God or Deva not the Universe or long ago Gautama cares if you blow your wad. :lol:


Kalachakra and H.H. the Dalai Lama care if one is practicing Kalachakra.

Gyelwa Jangchub, Namkhai Nyingpo, Taksham Nuden Dorje, Yeshe Tsogyel, and Guru Rinpoche care if one is practicing Dzogrim of Anuyoga.


Simon E. wrote:The whole point is the nature of the relationship.


What do you mean by the nature of the relationship?


Simon E. wrote:Not voodoo physiology.


Image

Simon E. wrote:Just to add in view of the the fact that the title of the thread is specific to Buddhists.
Some forms of Buddhism do see sexual activity as vulgar. One response to that is a whole complex of yogic practices aimed at stopping emission of semen. Because " every sperm is sacred ".

However no such considerations apply in Dzogchen where ejaculation is not seen as an issue per se at all.

Dont however take my word for that. Check it out.


Per se.

So maybe IF one has stabilized Rigpa, it might not be an issue.

The Dzogchen Master Longchenpa Rabjampa wrote that orgasm/ejaculation is perverted bliss (as opposed to non-attached bliss); now, granted that he was likely referring to Dzogchen practitioners who have not yet stabilized Rigpa....

For those of us who have not yet stabilized Rigpa, it would be wise to at least heed the advice of Tibetan Medicine on this topic:

Malcolm on Ojas

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has written about this as well.

By the way, for maintaining Ojas, it's fine to have sex everyday; just not to orgasm everyday (except perhaps during the winter, depending on one's diet, age, constitution, etc.)

And also, since in our ignorance most of us have ignored the wise advice of Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, it would also be wise for us to rebuild our ('prenatal') Ojas and Virya with Chulen of Mandarava practice, Yantra Yoga, Pranayama, Karmamudra practice, or any Long Life or Chulen practice, etc.

We couldn't very well have realization of any kind, without long life and strong energy (Virya, Ojas, etc.).

Two threads (a link to a link):

Buddha on Romantic Relationships and Wholesome Sexual Conduct

:anjali:
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:11 pm

Neither the conservation of semen nor the faint aroma of performing seals is required in Dzogchen.

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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:16 pm

Hi Simon E.

Please see the last half of my previous post.

If we haven't stabilized Rigpa, as has been said: "...then we have baby". :D

That is, by losing the Pure part of the Seed-Essence due to not having Awareness of Instant-Presence or incorrectly applying whatever other methods that might be applied in Dzogchen Sexual Yoga (which wouldn't be permissable to discuss here).

:anjali:
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:20 pm

Please refer to my post sir...retention of, and conservation of semen is not, repeat not, a requirement in Dzogchen.
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:25 pm

Simon E. wrote:Please refer to my post sir...retention of, and conservation of semen is not, repeat not, a requirement in Dzogchen.


Whether one has recognized rigpa or not.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:29 pm

Simon E., I didn't say that it is per sé (see my previous post).

All I'm saying is that if one loses the Pure part (Bodhicitta) of the Seed-Essence, then Ojas is lost; that is if orgasm is more frequent than what is recommended by Tibetan Medicine.

Treehuggingoctopus, yes and I would also say stabilized Rigpa; hence Chögyal Rinpoche saying that (teaching) Sexual Yoga practice—even in the context of Dzogchen—is not necessarily so easy.

:anjali:
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Please refer to my post sir...retention of, and conservation of semen is not, repeat not, a requirement in Dzogchen.


Whether one has recognized rigpa or not.


Indeed.
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Ikkyu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:58 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Hi Ikkyu

Ikkyu wrote:Here's something interesting. In the Kama Sutta the Buddha states the following:

"If one, longing for sexual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow."

...

"So one, always mindful, should avoid sexual desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore."


That's indirect, implied, or provisional; not definitive.

It is said that Buddha Shakyamuni himself taught the Guhyasamaja Tantra and that he is also one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers; so if we read between the lines, what the Buddha is saying there is that if one loses Ojas, Thigle, or Bodhicitta, then the fire goes out so to speak.

In other words, one actually can skillfully engage in the sexual act according to the Dharma, that is without losing Virya or Virility (Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta).

By losing Ojas/Thigle/Bodhicitta because of sexual desires, Bliss (Virya/Virility) diminishes.

Therefore if in the literal sexual act between woman and man, we do not lose it—or at least not the pure part—then we stay strong and virile for walking the Path, instead of succumbing to sexual desires.


So if we can scrap verses like this and the eight garudhammas from the suttas and unecessary as out of context for our culture and time, what's to say all of the suttas aren't true or unecessary? I mean isn't this cherry-picking? How and what do we cherry-pick with Buddhist scriptures?
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:04 pm

Ikkyu, it has nothing to do with scrapping or cherry-picking. In context, those are excellent verses.

Tantra and Dzogchen are simply higher teachings than Sutra. And since the Buddha Shakyamuni taught Guhyasamaja Tantra (to King Ja, Dza, or Indrabodhi) and since he is also one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers; he only gave the indirect, implied, or provisional meaning in many Sutras (because the Buddha didn't see it fit to give the definitive meaning at times, especially related to his Knowledge of Tantra, Mantra, Mahasandhi, etc.).

However this doesn't mean that Sutras don't ever give the definitive meaning, because the Sutras of the Buddha-Dharma do sometimes give the definitive meaning. Just not in this case.

:anjali:
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Re: Is sex considered vulgar to Buddhists?

Postby Ikkyu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:37 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Ikkyu, it has nothing to do with scrapping or cherry-picking. In context, those are excellent verses.

Tantra and Dzogchen are simply higher teachings than Sutra. And since the Buddha Shakyamuni taught Guhyasamaja Tantra (to King Ja, Dza, or Indrabodhi) and since he is also one of the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers; he only gave the indirect, implied, or provisional meaning in many Sutras (because the Buddha didn't see it fit to give the definitive meaning at times, especially related to his Knowledge of Tantra, Mantra, Mahasandhi, etc.).

However this doesn't mean that Sutras don't ever give the definitive meaning, because the Sutras of the Buddha-Dharma do sometimes give the definitive meaning. Just not in this case.

:anjali:


Interesting enough. But I don't follow the Vajrayana. (Technically I'm not a Buddhist at all since I haven't taken the precepts. I'm still studying Buddhism and asking questions in order to clarify issues like this one to see if Buddhism is for me and to make sure it's not homophobic, misogynistic and anti-sex... Unfortunately at the moment all these different sutras seem to impress me as somewhat intolerant... but anywho...) Outside of the Vajrayana, I still don't understand what is excellent or moral about denying human sexuality and claiming that women are inferior to men.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Vajrayana does come into play, at least where homosexuality is concerned. The Dalai Lama stated that, generally speaking, homosexual sex is considered a breaking of the precept. Also, Tsongkhapa was sort of prudish and homophobic as I understand. So was Ch'an master Hsuan Hua. No offense.
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