I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Simon E. » Sat May 10, 2014 7:31 pm

uan wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
joehayes999 wrote:“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
To me this is the single quotation that convinced me that the path was the right way, the only way. In relation to this video, or other Buddhist images or view of Hell, observe, meditate, think deeply and you will find the answer.



But you probably wont.

You can observe, meditate and think deeply, and its likely that in the end you will have to rely on the accomplishments of others who have seen for themselves.
In Buddhism thats called Sraddha.
Which is not mere ' belief ' or ' faith '.
Its a willingness to say 'I don't know but I will put it on the backburner because someone I have learned to trust says that this is the way it is '.


True he probably won't find the answer for himself about whether there is a hell or not in this lifetime, but really it doesn't matter. The real question people want to know is "am I going to hell?" In that respect, the accomplishments of others who have seen for themselves is irrelevant, unless they can tell ME if I'm heading that way.

But even given the answer, what does it actually mean? Does my understanding or concept even match what the masters have seen? Take a common experience most people can relate to - child birth. You can describe it, you can see it, but until you have a baby, what do you really know? Even then some women have an easy time of it, others don't.

I know a man who is choosing not to have a second aorta heart valve replacement, because of the incredibly painful experience it was the first time and how it significantly impacted his life for months and years. Another man who had a similar procedure, twice, made a Youtube video attacking the first man, saying the surgery is not anywhere near as heinous as the first man described, and that he was out of the hospital in 4 days and on the road to recovery. Who is right? Did they even truly have the same procedure? For the first man, is he getting the same exact procedure he had 15 years ago?

Yet in their minds, they both are absolutely certain of what an aorta heart valve replacement surgery will entail. Each has actual experience to draw on. And each is certain that they are talking about the same thing. So what is the answer?

A master can say, there is a hell. This is the way it is experienced or "this is the way I remember experiencing it". But has he actually answered anything? And hearing him say that, can one truly say "I have the answer for myself?". In theory, sure, but in reality? Not really.

We often dwell on nonessential things that have zero bearing on us. How many of us are truly one step away from Hell? Far too often hell is used to instill fear in people as a form of control and/or as negative reinforcement to ensure "proper" behavior.

JH999 has the right of it in a larger sense - he's already trusting the accomplishments of others to outline a path for him to take. But ultimately, only he, and each one of us, can walk our own path to its completion. The "answer" is basically knowing for yourself, it is enlightenment. No one can give that to you.



All the above points are rendered null and void if you are in relationship to a genuine Dzogchen teacher.
Who can indeed 'give that to you'.
Indeed, its the only way to get it.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 10, 2014 8:15 pm

Simon E. wrote:All the above points are rendered null and void if you are in relationship to a genuine Dzogchen teacher.
Who can indeed 'give that to you'.
Indeed, its the only way to get it.


Unfortunately Dzogchen is not something than can be given to you by a teacher. It is your own direct experience of real nature that counts and not your teacher's experience. We are not mimicking our teacher's experience. Our teacher is not giving us a Dzogchen that can be experienced in a passive sense. The teacher gives us the knowledge of how to enter our real nature, but after that it's up to us.

ChNN writes: "To explain our real state, even Buddha's tongue is inadequate......No teacher can explain our potentiality or the real state of Dzogchen. He or she can only give advice."

And further: "The teacher gives an introduction to the students in order to help them discover their real nature. He does not give them something tangible; he teaches them, rather, the method of how to work with their experiences. Learning this method, you can connect with the transmission."
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Simon E. » Sat May 10, 2014 8:29 pm

The teachers experience and ours are not two.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby uan » Sat May 10, 2014 11:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:The teachers experience and ours are not two.


but they are not one either.

You need the teacher to have the experience. The teacher does not need you. Or is the student now an enlightened Dzogchen teacher who can bring others to that experience?

I recall watching this lecture on quantum physics (iirc) by Richard Feyman. I got it. He's up at the blackboard going through the foundational stuff, getting deeper and deeper, leading us through each step of the equations, etc. It all made sense.

Then an hour later, without Feyman there, it became a confused blur.

But for that moment, when he was teaching, I was a theoretical quantum physicist!
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby oushi » Sun May 11, 2014 9:04 am

Simon E. wrote:The teachers experience and ours are not two.

I wonder if you can distinguish his hunger from yours... :popcorn:
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Simon E. » Sun May 11, 2014 1:26 pm

uan wrote:
Simon E. wrote:The teachers experience and ours are not two.


but they are not one either.

You need the teacher to have the experience. The teacher does not need you. Or is the student now an enlightened Dzogchen teacher who can bring others to that experience?

I recall watching this lecture on quantum physics (iirc) by Richard Feyman. I got it. He's up at the blackboard going through the foundational stuff, getting deeper and deeper, leading us through each step of the equations, etc. It all made sense.

Then an hour later, without Feyman there, it became a confused blur.

But for that moment, when he was teaching, I was a theoretical quantum physicist!


Which is why I was careful to say 'not two ' :smile:
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Jetavan » Sun May 11, 2014 5:37 pm

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Buddha" -- Ananda's Epistle to the Shakyans 10:31 (KBV: King Bimbisara Version)
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Jetavan wrote:"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Buddha" -- Ananda's Epistle to the Shakyans 10:31 (KBV: King Bimbisara Version)



:rolling: :rolling: :twothumbsup:

Seriously though, I think a lot of the philosophizing about six realms is pointless..all you need is inference that experience extends beyond what you have experienced in this life, what you can currently recall in either a "good" or "bad" direction.

For instance, if you take the worst desire you've experienced, or the worst anger, you can ask is it reasonable to infer that this state is a continuum, and that your own present experience is a small indication of what's possible..if you say yes, then essentially, that is the Six Realms. Whether or not it's an actual location in some sense, what substance it's made of etc., that all seems kind of beside the point to me.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with

Postby Jikan » Sun May 11, 2014 7:25 pm

Hi Mort 432,

I'm wondering if you might have the opportunity to comment on either or both of these posts:

Jikan wrote:
Mort432 wrote:Also gonna gravedig here a little bit, and possibly be a little off topic, but I spoke with my Shingon teacher (who is an ordained lama) and he said that the concept of hell/the narakas in Buddhism is completely false, at least within Shingon.


Take a look at the volume Kukai, Major Works, around p. 165.

It appears that Kukai presented the six realms in the traditional way. Is there a mistake in the translation, or are you saying that your teacher claims that Kukai may have had it wrong on this point?



WuMing wrote:
Mort432 wrote: .... Also gonna gravedig here a little bit, and possibly be a little off topic, but I spoke with my Shingon teacher (who is an ordained lama) and he said that the concept of hell/the narakas in Buddhism is completely false, at least within Shingon.


Just out of curiosity: A Shingon teacher being an ordained lama?? :shrug:

Ordinary people are blind to good and evil,
And do not believe in the existence of causes and results.
Seeing only the prospect of immediate profit,
How can they know of the fires of hell?
Shamelessly they commit the ten evil [deeds],
And in vain do they argue about the existence of a devine self.
Cherishing the three realms and attached to them,
Who can cast off the chains of mental afflictions?

Kukai - Precious Key
(tr. by Rolf Giebel)
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