Re: How can Buddhists be so sure of themselves?
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:40 am
So in the end of the day,do you guys really believe Avalokitesvara etc. really do exists or ??
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I believe Avalokitesvara is as real or unreal as we are.GarcherLancelot wrote:So in the end of the day,do you guys really believe Avalokitesvara etc. really do exists or ??
I believe that it doesn't matter what I believe, not for you anyway.GarcherLancelot wrote:So in the end of the day,do you guys really believe Avalokitesvara etc. really do exists or ??
But for Pure Land sect,I think they must believe it right?gregkavarnos wrote:I believe that it doesn't matter what I believe, not for you anyway.GarcherLancelot wrote:So in the end of the day,do you guys really believe Avalokitesvara etc. really do exists or ??
You are a Pure Lander? Look garcher, the point is what do you believe? What you believe is what is important for you, what others believe...GarcherLancelot wrote:But for Pure Land sect,I think they must believe it right?
No,well the point is i have trouble fully believing in one thing,one day you might think it is true owing to the "evidence",but if another day a bigger ,even stronger "evidence" might appear for let's say another faction,then how do I keep my faith?gregkavarnos wrote:You are a Pure Lander? Look garcher, the point is what do you believe? What you believe is what is important for you, what others believe...GarcherLancelot wrote:But for Pure Land sect,I think they must believe it right?
By verifying the "evidence" through personal experience. ie Don't believe the hype!GarcherLancelot wrote:No,well the point is i have trouble fully believing in one thing,one day you might think it is true owing to the "evidence",but if another day a bigger ,even stronger "evidence" might appear for let's say another faction,then how do I keep my faith?
No matter how much evidence we have of something, it still does not actually prove anything. We are still required to apply belief to reach an understanding. This would apply to the "direct experience" gained through buddhist practice also. My suggestion is to take all beliefs with a grain of salt, and choose whatever beliefs can be seen to lead to useful and healthy outcomes.GarcherLancelot wrote:No,well the point is i have trouble fully believing in one thing,one day you might think it is true owing to the "evidence",but if another day a bigger ,even stronger "evidence" might appear for let's say another faction,then how do I keep my faith?
How can a person have a personal experience of Avalokitesvara and separate that from a hallucination or wishful thinking? The mind does play tricks on us, after all.gregkavarnos wrote:By verifying the "evidence" through personal experience. ie Don't believe the hype!GarcherLancelot wrote:No,well the point is i have trouble fully believing in one thing,one day you might think it is true owing to the "evidence",but if another day a bigger ,even stronger "evidence" might appear for let's say another faction,then how do I keep my faith?
When it happens, I guarantee you that you will know 100% that it is not a hallucination or wishful thinking.Ikkyu wrote:How can a person have a personal experience of Avalokitesvara and separate that from a hallucination or wishful thinking? The mind does play tricks on us, after all.
The transformative power of that experience is much more important than the experience itself. If you gain a lot from it, if it helps you greatly, does it really matter if it was a hallucination? Does it really matter if it was your mind playing tricks on you? Or what really matters is how that experience helped you greatly?Ikkyu wrote:How can a person have a personal experience of Avalokitesvara and separate that from a hallucination or wishful thinking? The mind does play tricks on us, after all.gregkavarnos wrote:By verifying the "evidence" through personal experience. ie Don't believe the hype!GarcherLancelot wrote:No,well the point is i have trouble fully believing in one thing,one day you might think it is true owing to the "evidence",but if another day a bigger ,even stronger "evidence" might appear for let's say another faction,then how do I keep my faith?
Dechen Norbu wrote: The transformative power of that experience is much more important than the experience itself. If you gain a lot from it, if it helps you greatly, does it really matter if it was a hallucination? Does it really matter if it was your mind playing tricks on you? Or what really matters is how that experience helped you greatly?
I wouldn't mind having hallucinations like that on a regular basis.
With time perhaps you discover if it was a hallucination or not.
Well said, but for the last line. Didn't you just say it was irrelevant?Dechen Norbu wrote:The transformative power of that experience is much more important than the experience itself. If you gain a lot from it, if it helps you greatly, does it really matter if it was a hallucination? Does it really matter if it was your mind playing tricks on you? Or what really matters is how that experience helped you greatly?
I wouldn't mind having hallucinations like that on a regular basis.
With time perhaps you discover if it was a hallucination or not.
So are beliefs in Buddhism more means to an end than ends in themselves?Dechen Norbu wrote:Don't forget the "perhaps". Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't. It doesn't take away the benefit of the experience.
More, if Buddha considered reality, or what we take as reality, as an illusion, in the end all may be a hallucination of sorts until Enlightenment. Maya, in general, is a hallucination of sorts (not in the clinical term).
Pick the "hallucinations" that help and leave the rest.
Definitely.Ikkyu wrote:So are beliefs in Buddhism more means to an end than ends in themselves?
Ikkyu wrote:How can a person prove that enlightenment exists,
Ikkyu wrote:or that Bodhisattvas or Buddhas exist?
Ikkyu wrote:What empirical evidence is there that any of the sutras, suttas, tantras and whatnot are true?
Ikkyu wrote:I mean, most Buddhists are non-theistic. I too am a skeptic and was lead to believe that there isn't a personal god/sky-daddy watching over us, as the idea isn't supported by scientific fact. What real, hard evidence is there that bodhisattvas exist, that enlightenment is possibility or that rebirth can happen either? Outside of philosophical conjecture is it really possible to prove this? And if can't be proven, why become a monk and give your life to something that might not be true?
Ikkyu wrote:I'm not saying that these things aren't true, but before I take precepts I would like some evidence that Buddhism is actually something more than a dried up philosophy. I mean, claiming that you're a supremely enlightened individual is a pretty big deal, amirite? I'm considering the precepts but I'm still a skeptic. So prove me wrong.