Is 'Wholesome Conduct' in Sex a good Karma?

[Simon E.]

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

It depends. I've read about the path to liberation but I feel called to be the founder of a solid family unit.

Then do so...do it properly. Make it your Yana.

[Wesley1982]

What is Yana translated to modern English?..

[Huifeng]

What is Yana translated to modern English?..

Usually "vehicle", indicating path, method, means, career, etc. practice, etc.

~~ Huifeng

[Simon E.]

With the added implication that it can be a vehicle that leads to liberation.

[CapNCrunch]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state

Lol. I wonder if they'd make the same argument after 20 years of marriage.

[Astus]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state.

Just to add a little more to this. Why people have sex? There can be a few reasons, sure, but the most common cause is the desire for sensual pleasure. Desire for sensual pleasure (kāmatṛṣṇā) is the very cause of birth in this realm of sensuality (kāmaloka) where we are now. This is true in all vehicles of Buddhism, just as dependent origination is true. Also, why people like to think that sex is not a hindrance to enlightenment? Because they are very much attached to it. Rhetoric excuses make no difference.

[Lucjan]

But if you feel desire, this is a form of attachment, Vajrayana or not.

Desire is not really a form of attachment, even though the former commonly results in the latter. Desire is our playing field, the actual cause of our human dimension. Attachment is our ignorant reaction to desire. It is possible, and liberating, to experience desire devoid of attachment.

[Lhug-Pa]

Like water, the sexual force is unstoppable, so if as a celibate one is not applying a lot of, as I've said, fairly advanced Yoga practices everyday, or at least A LOT of basic Pranayama exercises everyday; then the sexual energy won't take long to find an outlet, and, when repressed for a long time the said outlet can be rather morbid and harmful (example: the Roman Catholic church, or: Child Abuse Rampant in Sinhalese Monasteries).

If one can sublimate the Sexual Vayus/Winds through Meditation and Pranayama for years and years, then that's great. Maybe some here have actually achieved that. However if others are not achieving that, then some healthy sex between woman and man is going to be much, much better than the disastrous consequences of long term repression.

[Wesley1982]

Choosing celibacy for the sake of your ordination requirements is an admirable vow to keep.

[Wesley1982]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state.

That's why most people marry; - and a smaller percentage of married couples actually fullfill their original vows in the long-run. Consider the divorce rate

[Lhug-Pa]

Choosing celibacy for the sake of your ordination requirements is an admirable vow to keep.

Oh for sure.

However H.H. the Dalai Lama implies that a monk could enter into physical sexual union with a Karmamudra, and still keep their vow of chastity, as long as they refrain from reaching the orgasm:

"Actually, [...] the sexual organ is utilized, but the energy movement which is taking place is, in the end, fully controlled.

"The energy should never be let out.

"This energy must be controlled and eventually returned to other parts of the body.

"And here we can see there is a kind of special connection with celibacy."

- The Heart of the Buddha's Path by H.H. the Dalai Lama

Although it is said that before a monk can do this, that they should first be able to bring the Vayu or Winds into the Central Channel through Kumbhaka or Tummo practice.

That's why most people marry; - and a smaller percentage of married couples actually fullfill their original vows in the long-run. Consider the divorce rate

Hence the importance of Yogas for sublimation or transmutation such as Kumbhaka, Pranayama, Tummo, Yantra Yoga, Tsa-Lung, etc.; as it is said that these Yoga or Tantra practices can help a lot to keep the Sexual Vayus under control, so that one can make sure that there's more than only physical attraction, so that one does not just jump right into a marriage simply out of sexual attachment/craving.

[Huifeng]

Choosing celibacy for the sake of your ordination requirements is an admirable vow to keep.

Oh for sure.

However H.H. the Dalai Lama implies that a monk could enter into physical sexual union with a Karmamudra, and still keep their vow of chastity, as long as they refrain from reaching the orgasm:

"Actually, [...] the sexual organ is utilized, but the energy movement which is taking place is, in the end, fully controlled.

"The energy should never be let out.

"This energy must be controlled and eventually returned to other parts of the body.

"And here we can see there is a kind of special connection with celibacy."

- The Heart of the Buddha's Path by H.H. the Dalai Lama

Although it is said that before a monk can do this, that they should first be able to bring the Vayu or Winds into the Central Channel through Kumbhaka or Tummo practice.

While HHDL may say this, it does not accord with the Vinaya.

~~ Huifeng

[Lhug-Pa]

Well maybe I assumed too much there.

In other words, if any sort of sexual union is against the Vinaya period, then perhaps H.H. the Dalai Lama (or his translator) should have replaced the word "celibacy" with the word "chastity" in the above quote.

Because:

Celibacy = Refraining from physical sexual union altogether.

Chastity = Keeping the Thigle, Bindu, Ojas, or Bodhicitta Drops inside the physical body; whether it be through celibate Pranayama and Meditation or through physical Chaste Sexual Union between Man & Woman.

Therefore, even though it might be possible to be both celibate and Chaste; it's also possible to go celibate without being Chaste, just as it is possible to be Chaste without going celibate.

[KeithBC]

Well, I would think that "Wholeseome Conduct" would be beneficial in everything a perosn did in life, wouldn't it?

[Simon E.]

Well maybe I assumed too much there.

In other words, if any sort of sexual union is against the Vinaya period, then perhaps H.H. the Dalai Lama (or his translator) should have replaced the word "celibacy" with the word "chastity" in the above quote.

Because:

Celibacy = Refraining from physical sexual union altogether.

Chastity = Keeping the Thigle, Bindu, Ojas, or Bodhicitta Drops inside the physical body; whether it be through celibate Pranayama and Meditation or through physical Chaste Sexual Union between Man & Woman.

Therefore, even though it might be possible to be both celibate and Chaste; it's also possible to go celibate without being Chaste, just as it is possible to be Chaste without going celibate.

Spot on.

[Astus]

But if you feel desire, this is a form of attachment, Vajrayana or not.

Desire is not really a form of attachment, even though the former commonly results in the latter. Desire is our playing field, the actual cause of our human dimension. Attachment is our ignorant reaction to desire. It is possible, and liberating, to experience desire devoid of attachment.

This is a nice argument actually, that there can be desire without attachment. What is desire without attachment? It means that desire appears, but one does not grasp it, so desire goes away. If there is no attachment to desire, there is no action that emerges from it, and that way the chain of the origination of suffering is cut. However, in order to have sex, one necessarily holds on to the desire and believes that it will result in happiness and satisfaction. It is a great example of distorted view and not applying the four noble truths.

[Simon E.]

But if you feel desire, this is a form of attachment, Vajrayana or not.

Desire is not really a form of attachment, even though the former commonly results in the latter. Desire is our playing field, the actual cause of our human dimension. Attachment is our ignorant reaction to desire. It is possible, and liberating, to experience desire devoid of attachment.

This is a nice argument actually, that there can be desire without attachment. What is desire without attachment? It means that desire appears, but one does not grasp it, so desire goes away. If there is no attachment to desire, there is no action that emerges from it, and that way the chain of the origination of suffering is cut. However, in order to have sex, one necessarily holds on to the desire and believes that it will result in happiness and satisfaction. It is a great example of distorted view and not applying the four noble truths.

You accurately sum up the Buddhist view. However this is not the View in Dzogchen.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Desire is not really a form of attachment, even though the former commonly results in the latter. Desire is our playing field, the actual cause of our human dimension. Attachment is our ignorant reaction to desire. It is possible, and liberating, to experience desire devoid of attachment.

This is a nice argument actually, that there can be desire without attachment. What is desire without attachment? It means that desire appears, but one does not grasp it, so desire goes away. If there is no attachment to desire, there is no action that emerges from it, and that way the chain of the origination of suffering is cut. However, in order to have sex, one necessarily holds on to the desire and believes that it will result in happiness and satisfaction. It is a great example of distorted view and not applying the four noble truths.

You accurately sum up the Buddhist view. However this is not the View in Dzogchen.

True that. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure if the above is the Vajrayana view.

[Astus]

You accurately sum up the Buddhist view. However this is not the View in Dzogchen.

AFAIK, neither dependent origination nor karma is missing from Dzogchen, just as Dzogchen ngondro (Longchen Nyingtig, Dudjom Tersar) contains the four thoughts.

[Simon E.]

AFAYK.