Is 'Wholesome Conduct' in Sex a good Karma?

[Wesley1982]

Is 'Wholesome Conduct' in Sex a good Karma? thanks.

[Lhug-Pa]

Kalachakra, Pundarika, Je Tsongkhapa, and H.H. the Dalai Lama say that it is.

There are some relevant quotes from H.H. the Dalai Lama that I've posted in the thread about Buddha on Romantic Relationships in the Personal Experience subforum.

And it has been said that the Dzogchen view on sex is maybe a little different than the Kalachakra and Anuyoga view; and that the Khandro Nyingthig and the Lama Yangthig and/or Longchen Rabjam's commentary on the latter, explain the way sexuality is applied in Dzogchen.

However I think that somewhere on the Berzin Archives website, H.H. the Dalai Lama compared the way Thigle or Kundalini works in Kalachakra Tantra, to Dzogchen.

[Quiet Heart]

Is 'Wholesome Conduct' in Sex a good Karma? thanks.

Well, I would think that "Wholeseome Conduct" would be beneficial in everything a perosn did in life, wouldn't it?
And, if that person was involved in a loving marriage or relationship....which let's just say includes Sex....then "Wholesome Conduct" in that relationship would be a given, wouldn't it?
The problem, as always, is establishing exactly what that "Wholesome Conduct" consists of.
(The devil is always in the details...the "fine print" of the contract.)

[Wesley1982]

Well, I would think that "Wholeseome Conduct" would be beneficial in everything a perosn did in life, wouldn't it?

Yes it would.

The problem, as always, is establishing exactly what that "Wholesome Conduct" consists of

In this specific narrow context, it has to do with how you treat your partner.

[Sönam]

In this specific narrow context, it has to do with how you treat your partner.

Yes, respectful attitude is wholesome, for sex as for football ...

Sönam

[Huifeng]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state. This would be the basic standpoint of Indian Buddhism, up until the (possibly mid or) late medieval period, fairly late in the game.

~~ Huifeng

[Simon E.]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state. This would be the basic standpoint of Indian Buddhism, up until the (possibly mid or) late medieval period, fairly late in the game.

~~ Huifeng

That may well be the standpoint of Indian Buddhism up until the medieval period. It may well be the viewpoint of the Theravada to this day. But it is not such a black and white issue in the Vajrayana , and is definitely not the viewpoint of Dzogchen.

[Wesley1982]

Well, if not for the act of procreation (sex) by your biological parents ~ (you know; mom & dad) - how would you not have been born as a baby?..

[Huifeng]

Though others would argue that sex itself involves some degree of craving for sensory experience, either a defiled or at least not a wholesome mental state. This would be the basic standpoint of Indian Buddhism, up until the (possibly mid or) late medieval period, fairly late in the game.

~~ Huifeng

That may well be the standpoint of Indian Buddhism up until the medieval period. It may well be the viewpoint of the Theravada to this day. But it is not such a black and white issue in the Vajrayana , and is definitely not the viewpoint of Dzogchen.

It's definitely not just Theravada, but basically all forms of Buddhism except types of vajrayana. I simply wished to point out other points of view, in a forum which is increasingly focused on vajrayana teachings. Ultimately, people will make their own decisions on what to believe, and I think that is a good thing.

~~ Huifeng

[Huifeng]

Well, if not for the act of procreation (sex) by your biological parents ~ (you know; mom & dad) - how would you not have been born as a baby?..

One wouldn't be. But this is a red herring and beside the point.

Intercourse by the parents is only one part of the process of rebirth as a human, the most important being actual sensual sphere craving on the part of an intermediate being (ie. in the mental stream of a living being who has recently died).

Now, if that person didn't have sensual desire, they would probably be reborn as a deva. Or, if they didn't have any craving at all, they would be liberated.

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

~~ Huifeng

[Dechen Norbu]

It's also important to keep in mind that in Vajrayana you fight fire with fire. Sexual practices are not there to cultivate attachment, much less ignoring it.
It's a complex issue. In Vajrayana you need very precise instructions to practice karmamudra and the objective is not sex, but using sensation as a method, and what sensation is more evident than sexual climax? Of course if you don't have desire, then sex becomes impossible. So in Vajrayana you will use that sexual desire and you are specifically instructed not to proceed beyond certain points in meditative stabilization practices so that it doesn't fall asleep - while the seed for desire will remain dormant, not being eliminated. The objective will be cutting attachment by the root. These practices are not for everyone. As I said, they need very precise instructions.
Dzogchen is different, but it's beyond the scope of this thread to explain it. I just wanted to clarify things regarding Vajrayana. You don't do sex because it's OK. It's not unwholesome behavior as long as you follow a few simple rules (that can be summarized in causing no harm).
You do it if you are a lay person, like any other Buddhist without ordination, but it's a mundane thing. You should treat your partner with respect and all that that we know is wholesome and almost goes without saying. But if you feel desire, this is a form of attachment, Vajrayana or not. You can choose to use that desire and work with it or not. If you practice Vajrayana and have a teacher to instruct you in these matters, then it is a powerful practice. If you don't and try, consequences can be extremely dire for your health (especially when you know a little, but have no guidance). So you may have sex and do other practices knowing that desire, as repulsion, will be eradicated even if you don't practice karmamudra. When you solve the problem of ignorance, the rest follows.

[Wesley1982]

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

It depends. I've read about the path to liberation but I feel called to be the founder of a solid family unit.

[Lhug-Pa]

Since this was said in an open webcast and the method referred to is given in an non-restricted book, I'll repost this from another thread (with some editing):


"...since the Vajra Wave of Yantra Yoga is given in a publicly-available book by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche himself (simply titled Yantra Yoga); I think it's fine to say here that in a recent open webcast teaching he said that if we engage in sexual practices, that if we perform the Vajra Wave afterwards, then we can correct any mistakes we might have made in the practice so that we don't have any problems with our energy (Nadis, Vayus, Prana, Bindu, Chakras, etc.)."

And Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche recommended this even for those who go out and buy books on Hindu or Taoist Sexual Yoga, because he must figure that if people are going to do it anyway, they might as well have some health insurance (Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Wave).

Also, as I'd said in the link I posted in my initial post in this thread, H.H. the Dalai Lama himself has taken it upon himself to give some basic yet somewhat detailed explanations on Karmamudra practice, which shows that there's really no reason to keep it on the down-low so much anymore.

And from the same thread:

"If one chooses the celibate route—then in order to sublimate the powerful energy of sex—looking into some daily Yantra Yoga and/or Kumbhaka or other Pranayama practices, would be a very good idea."

[Dechen Norbu]

Yes, it's good to have that in mind. Nevertheless, if you heard his last webcast, you also know he emphasized how important it is for those practicing Tantra to receive detailed instructions about sexual practices. When it comes to Vajrayana, you don't take any chances. The method ChNN recommends is excellent but it won't guarantee you won't have problems. Sometimes we are at the edge of a precipice and it only takes a little to fall. Falling from a precipice or simply falling to the ground have different results. Not knowing the individual circumstances of someone who decides to go yahoo with Vajrayana sexual practices, it's always better to recommend that people should not do them without proper guidance. You can teach first aids to help someone if he has a car crash. But if he was going 100 mi/h it won't do much good. So it's better to play safe. If people go and do it, it's better they have some help. But sometimes even that help may not be enough.

[Huifeng]

Yes, the "Exploring Buddhism" forum is now the entry point for Dzogchen practice, haha!

~~ Huifeng

[Wesley1982]

And Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche recommended this even for those who go out and buy books on Hindu or Taoist Sexual Yoga, because he must figure that if people are going to do it anyway, they might as well have some health insurance (Yantra Yoga and the Vajra Wave).

"If one chooses the celibate route—then in order to sublimate the powerful energy of sex—looking into some daily Yantra Yoga and/or Kumbhaka or other Pranayama practices, would be a very good idea."

I like the Illumination of the Tao And I feel its plenty of work done to continue trodding your path.

[Lhug-Pa]

All I can say at this point is if anyone decides to practice Sexual Yoga on their own, at least do your very best to not—as Dechen Norbu said—"go yahoo" (in other words, start out slowly).

And make sure to have Right Intention, and try to learn as much as possible about it from reliable sources such as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, H.H. the Dalai Lama, etc. (so in my opinion avoid books and websites like corrupted and/or watered-down versions of the Kama Sutra, or "How to Have 100 "Tantrick" Orgasms in One Day", etc. like the plague).

Nonetheless, as you said Dechen Norbu the best way is always going to be to receive instructions from a qualified Lama.

Wesley, I searched that book and what came up was a Thomas Cleary book called Practical Taoism. Is it the same book? Maybe I'll see if a large preview of it is up for perusal on Google books. Taoist Alchemy seems to be very interesting. Although it's probably not so easy to find Taoist Masters anymore. But I could be mistaken about that.

[Spirituality]

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

It depends. I've read about the path to liberation but I feel called to be the founder of a solid family unit.

That's fine: lay people are as essential to the survival of Buddhism as monastics. However, from the point of view of the path to enlightenment eventually that will have to be given up. In the mean time, yes, it's definitely better karma to be mindful and faithful in your relationship than not to be wholesome. The fact that the higher Buddhist ideal is to let all that go doesn't have to bother you at this point.

[Simon E.]

Well, if not for the act of procreation (sex) by your biological parents ~ (you know; mom & dad) - how would you not have been born as a baby?..

One wouldn't be. But this is a red herring and beside the point.

Intercourse by the parents is only one part of the process of rebirth as a human, the most important being actual sensual sphere craving on the part of an intermediate being (ie. in the mental stream of a living being who has recently died).

Now, if that person didn't have sensual desire, they would probably be reborn as a deva. Or, if they didn't have any craving at all, they would be liberated.

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

~~ Huifeng

Thats a false dilemma.

[Simon E.]

So, which would the aspiring yogi prefer - sensual craving, copulating potential parents and rebirth as a human being, or liberation?

It depends. I've read about the path to liberation but I feel called to be the founder of a solid family unit.

That's fine: lay people are as essential to the survival of Buddhism as monastics. However, from the point of view of the path to enlightenment eventually that will have to be given up. In the mean time, yes, it's definitely better karma to be mindful and faithful in your relationship than not to be wholesome. The fact that the higher Buddhist ideal is to let all that go doesn't have to bother you at this point.

No, it doesn't have to be given up.