Buddhist ethics and BDSM?

[Rain]

The third precept says not to engage in sexual misconduct, but does not define "misconduct". I have seen this explained as "don't engage in sexual conduct that would cause suffering to others" (don't commit rape, if you're married don't cheat on your spouse, etc.).

What I am not clear on is how this applies to BDSM.

For anyone not familiar with the term, BDSM is consensual kinky sexual practices based on dominance and submission and/or sadism and masochism. Both partners engage in the activity willingly, and enjoy it thoroughly. (Some types of pain can be extremely enjoyable... it's one of those things that only makes sense if you've experienced it.) The "top" (dominant and/or pain-inflicting partner) typically takes a great deal of care to ensure the wellbeing of the "bottom" (submissive and/or pain-receiving partner), both physically and emotionally. The safety and trust you can feel cuddling after a good BDSM scene is *amazing*.

It all sounds OK (after all, a deep tissue massage is also painful but pleasant) -- until you realize that BDSM role-plays can include play-acting of bad things like slavery, rape, or torture! Although they may enjoy pretending and acting out these things, BDSM participants *DO NOT* want them to happen in the real world... bottoms do not actually want those things to happen to us (and would not enjoy it if it did), and tops do not actually want to do those things to anyone (and would find it horrifying and repulsive if they saw such things happen in the real world). And yet, somehow, many people find fantasies and sex play involving things-that-would-be-horrific-in-the-real-world to be enjoyable. I can't explain why... maybe our brains are just wired that way.

Do you think that enjoyment of BDSM by people who may be pretending horrible things (but actually extremely opposed to those things ever happening in the real world) is a violation of the third precept or any other basic Buddhist ethic?

[Thug4lyfe]

It's sexual misconduct.

Sexual fantasies in the mind is already based on Greed. Sexual fantasies thats relating submissions, domination, odd penetrations, torture etc etc means you have Greed for cruelty. Of course it's not as bad as if your Ted Bundy or Buffalo Bill who actually take it one step further. But yeah, all this unwholesomeness starts some where.

Normalising this sort of behaviour is not open mindedness, it's harming other people by deluding them. Inhibition is not a bad thing.

[Multiplicity]

Would like you to take those memories to Nirvana?

If you were one of the Buddha's disciples, would you ask him if BSDM was okay?

I think that would be one of the rare times the Awakened One's face would show discontent.

[Thug4lyfe]

You wouldn't achieve Nirvana with those actions... you would reborn somewhere unpleasant!!!

[Rain]

Would like you to take those memories to Nirvana?

Yes. Engaging in BDSM with somebody requires absolute trust for them, and the closeness that brings is incredible.

If you were one of the Buddha's disciples, would you ask him if BSDM was okay?

I think that would be one of the rare times the Awakened One's face would show discontent.

I would certainly be interested to know what his answer would be. As an enlightened being who understands all things, his answer, whatever it may be, would undoubtedly be something reasoned and compassionate, not a knee-jerk "eww!"

[Multiplicity]

Would like you to take those memories to Nirvana?

Yes. Engaging in BDSM with somebody requires absolute trust for them, and the closeness that brings is incredible.

If you were one of the Buddha's disciples, would you ask him if BSDM was okay?

I think that would be one of the rare times the Awakened One's face would show discontent.

I would certainly be interested to know what his answer would be. As an enlightened being who understands all things, his answer, whatever it may be, would undoubtedly be something reasoned and compassionate, not a knee-jerk "eww!"

The reason for his discontent would not be because of the nature of the acts but because you are still clinging to the material senses when the path to the deathless and birthless is before you.

Anyways, the precept is no sexual misconduct. If you judge for your self what you are doing is not misconduct, then it is not.

[Nighthawk]

Very strange to say the least but should be ok if both of the individuals agree to it One of the many "pleasures" if you can call it that that need to be let go of in the pursuit for Nirvana if you are serious about it.

[Seishin]

I'm not sure whether it comes under "misconduct" if both parties are willing, understanding and it is kept safe for both involved. However, I would say that giving in to our fantisies for sexual gratification (or any gratification for that matter) is the opposite of what the Buddha taught.

My two pennies

Gassho,
Seishin.

[gregkavarnos]

If any sexual act is a source of suffering then it is sexual misconduct. If it gives rise to one of the eight worldly dharmas (hope of happiness, praise, gain and fame, and/or fear of suffering, disgrace, blame and loss) then it is sexual misconduct. If it leads to attachment and/or aversion then it is sexual misconduct. ANY SEXUAL ACT (or any "class" of sexual activity).

Now since we live in samsara almost any activity, perpetrated within a deluded and ignorant mindset, will lead to suffering. Even the most "wholesome" of activities. So... Go figure!

[AlexanderS]

I danish women was accidently murdered by doing this.

I don't think there is anyway to not consider it to a hinderance to the path.

[edearl]

BDSM is beyond my ability to imagine doing it and is emotionally unsettling to think of others doing it. Please be careful.

[MrDistracted]

I understand the latest thing in town is Tantra and BDSM:

http://datingaid.co.za/sexuality/tantra ... vine-kinky



Now where did I put my leather lunghi?....

[mint]

Yes. Engaging in BDSM with somebody requires absolute trust for them, and the closeness that brings is incredible.

Trust, yes, but also attachment. There is no problem with trusting yourself with your partner, but this closeness you speak of can only lead to afflictive attachment and thus further suffering. You may be interested in this discussion on the distinction between love vs. attachment:

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=5062

Plus, pleasure is being sought in the Three Poisons: Desire, Hatred, and Ignorance. This, too, can only lead to further suffering.

I would certainly be interested to know what his answer would be. As an enlightened being who understands all things, his answer, whatever it may be, would undoubtedly be something reasoned and compassionate, not a knee-jerk "eww!"

Why bother with the Buddha? Seek counsel from a guru in your area. It is the same thing.

[gregkavarnos]

http://datingaid.co.za/sexuality/tantra ... vine-kinky

That is some heavily delusive shit going on there I tell yah! I wonder how much they pay/charge people to (literally) buy into the delusion?

I first came across the idea of Tantra meets BDSM in a "Dark Eros" workshop facilitated by John Hawken; one of the UK's most experienced Tantra Teachers...

Introducing the man himself:
John Hawken

john hawken.jpg (29.67 KiB) Viewed 2060 times

Would you trust this man with your son/daughter/spouse/parent?

[Chaz]

Plus, pleasure is being sought in the Three Poisons: Desire, Hatred, and Ignorance. This, too, can only lead to further suffering.

Dude, that is the case in just about everything, not just rough nookie. You might as well check out of the planet, because there's NOTHING that doesn't qualify as falling under the umbrella of the 3 Poisons in one way, shape or form.

I think what needs to be demonstrated here is a clear definition of misconduct that is actually relevant.

[Virgo]

The third precept says not to engage in sexual misconduct, but does not define "misconduct". I have seen this explained as "don't engage in sexual conduct that would cause suffering to others" (don't commit rape, if you're married don't cheat on your spouse, etc.).

What I am not clear on is how this applies to BDSM.

With consenting people, I don't think it's a big deal. I don't think it's particularly wholesome karma because it just reinforces attachment again and again, but I don't think it's a horrible thing either. People have different things that turn them on, so doing kinky type acts for people who are into that, is not very different from two consensual partners who don't engage in bdsm but do other particular sexual actions to please each other.

All attachment has one flavour, whether it be attachment to food, sex, the smell of fresh air, or anything at all. It does arise with different degrees of intensity, though. So realize that it is just attachment, just like any other moment of attachment, try not to get too caught up in it to a degree that you get carried away, and, of course, be safe and try not to hurt anyone.

We are easily caught up in the flood of attachment.

We are also easily caught up in the flood of aversion, including aversion to being attached, doing something that reinforces attachment, or seeing or hearing about somebody that does something based on attachment. Aversion too is unwholesome. So we take the Middle Way, and understand with wisdom.

Kevin

[ronnewmexico]

As a specific...our consciousness has habitual aspect based upon retention.

The hazard then from a practical viewpoint is to estasbllish a firm habitual tendency.
So thusly established there may be hazard not only to human rebirth but to type of human rebirthed into.

As per example but not directly related.....some peoples are obsessed with pornography. Every available hour is spend doing that thing.
There does exist a animal that is a fish. It, the male, attaches to the female upon sex.Unlike normal sex it does not detach but becomes a appendage of the female for its entire life. Providing its male essence to the female gradually over the years but permenantly attached to the female.
I assume it remains in sexual bliss.

There do exist animals that do have sex of the violent sort, perhaps cats may be a example and perhaps in the extreem are black widow spiders whose females devour the male in sexual act.

So I'd say the hazard is in establishing the habit not in the act itself as it is indeed consentual.
But a habit when firmly established may be very very hard to devolve.

If I was so compelled I would do such a thing in the context of a quiet mind.When engageing doing so with no thought of a conscious kind.
For the entire duration of the event from start to finish.
Then one would not establish a basis for habit formation and one may establish a spiritual aspect to this thing.
I would expect over time this complusion would dissolve.
Habit devolving. And actually the spiritual the quiet mind aspect becoming this thing of sex. This is not enlightenment but one aspect of consciousness liberated.

I would assume it is not bad as it harms actually no one.But the hazard is in the habit not the thing itself.
There are various presentations in the bardo after physcical death that may lead to untoward end if one has established habits of a certain kind...that is my belief.

So I would say quiet mind would devolve this thing, and it is probably best it be devolved. So one must first if one is not adept in quite mind becomes so.
When adept as this is habit sexual bliss may still be possible when engageing in this thing. With time the quiet mind becomes in a sense the bliss so the sexual act becomes a bit irrelevent. As such with more time I assume it would not be in the main engaged in except perhaps as need of other sexual partner, to live a harmonius life as mate. So it could be engaged if necessary for harmonius marriage perhaps but be really irrelevent and of no concern thusly not producing of habit of a untoward sort....

that is my plan how I would address this thng...It is not bad, no, not at all. Neutral. But neutral can provide habit formation as well. Eventually it may come to a situation in which such a action is not chosen but compelled to occur...such is how we create our reality and compel its existance...eventually all becomes to a extent compelled. Liquid is compelled into solid.....that's how it goes. We reform with choice and rebirth to unchosen circumstance we have limited influence upon....as human is.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

black widow spiders whose females devour the male in sexual act

I guess you could say he comes and he goes at the same time.

http://instantrimshot.com/

[ronnewmexico]

The female will also eat whatever offspring she can get her tentacles upon ,( but that is another matter....yes he comes and goes.... One obsessed with sex of a certain sort may thing that a perfect way to go. One male in germany I think it was, not to long ago, had a male sexual partner chop off his thing and then fry it up and eat it.He bled to death in the bathtub apparently with his agreement on that thing. I think both did so engage in the eating, describing it as being tough like grizzle. Nevertheless the partner was charged and convicted of a crime. HOw they described that thing being cut up and eaten would make most blanch.

No offense to monks or nuns but this is the sort of question I think most would not be most suited to answer, as well as some others ...we must realize our limitations a bit.

[deepbluehum]

Sexual misconduct is not a precise translation of Kāmesumicchācāra, which is more akin to sensual indulgence.