Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?

[Serenity509]

While I do not believe in reincarnation, I prefer to see it as an opportunity for spiritual evolution through many different circumstances and experiences than the pessimistic view that it's a curse we must liberate ourselves from. If the final destination for everyone is nirvana, why does it matter if it takes many lifetimes to attain?

The Purpose of Reincarnation

Richard Pettinger

Ask Richard Pettinger a Question
Reincarnation is the idea that death is not the end. After death the soul leaves the body, but, after a temporary rest takes rebirth in a new body. Reincarnation is an integral belief of many spiritual traditions. It is often asked why is reincarnation necessary? The main reason is that Reincarnation gives the soul chance to make slow steady progress towards fulfilling its highest goals.

1. Different Experiences.

From each incarnation the soul takes the quintessence of its experiences. From these different episodes in the evolution of the soul, it is possible to gain a comprehensive understanding of many different experiences. In one incarnation we may have great fame, wealth and power. However, even in this kind of incarnation, we cannot achieve peace of mind and abiding satisfaction. Therefore, in our next lifetime we may have a more ordinary, humble incarnation. We will view life from perspective of both powerful and weak. This will give us greater understanding. These different experiences also give us the opportunity to fulfil our desires.

“In one lifetime on earth we cannot do everything…Now our dearest is God. Do you think that God will allow us to remain unfulfilled? No! God's very purpose is to fulfil each individual and Himself through us. He will have us come back again and again to fulfil our desires.”

- Sri Chinmoy [2]

2. Fresh Start.

After a certain number of years we grow old and tired. Quite often people get stuck in a rut, and are content with past memories. As we get older, usually we do not feel like taking on fresh challenges. From a practical point of view the body declines, and it becomes increasingly difficult to fulfil our desires and aspirations. Reincarnation enables us to be reborn with new hope and new life. Furthermore, because we do not usually remember our previous incarnations, we can wipe our memory clear of our unfortunate past experience. We may have been a thief in the past, but reincarnation gives us the chance to mend our ways. No one is destined to remain imperfect forever.

3. The Law of Karma.

The law of Karma is a fundamental underlying law of the universe. Basically, the law of karma says; “As you sow so, shall you reap.” The law of karma has been explained and emphasised, in many different religious and spiritual traditions. It is the process of reincarnation, which enables the law of karma to fully operate. In one lifetime you may be born in unfortunate circumstances and be deceived by others. These unfortunate experiences can be rectified in a future incarnation. Similarly, if a person was to profit from the exploitation of others, he may be able to escape the cosmic justice in his current incarnation; but, in future incarnations he would experience the effects of his actions. Nobody can hide forever from their own actions. At the same time, not all karma is inevitable. If we have done wrong things in previous incarnations, it is possible for the effects to be nullified or reduced by God’s grace, or the intervention of a Spiritual Master.

4. Self Realisation

There comes a point in the soul’s evolution, when the entire being; mind, heart, body and soul are aspiring to realise the highest. If we can attain realisation of the Supreme, Transcendental Consciousness, we can escape the cycle of rebirth and death. For example, the Buddha taught that on attaining nirvana it was not necessary for the soul to be continually reborn. However, to attain Self-realisation or nirvana is no easy task. It can take many incarnations to free ourselves from our earthly desires and inherited tendencies. On the one hand, if we aspire most intensely, realisation is possible in this incarnation. But during one lifetime many seekers complete only part of the journey. Reincarnation enables us to make continual progress in the future. Furthermore, to manifest the qualities of the soul can take even more incarnations. As spiritual teacher, Sri Chinmoy says;

“It very often happens that realisation can take place in one incarnation, but for manifestation the soul has to come down again and again to earth. Unless and until we reveal and manifest the highest Divinity within us, our game is not over.”
http://www.spiritualnow.com/articles/89 ... Page1.html

[Josef]

Try telling this to those who take birth in the lower realms.

[Serenity509]

Try telling this to those who take birth in the lower realms.

Won't they eventually be born higher realms?

[Malcolm]

While I do not believe in reincarnation...

Then Buddhism is definitely not for you.

[Serenity509]

While I do not believe in reincarnation...

Then Buddhism is definitely not for you.

If there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. - Siddhārtha Gautama

"All Buddhists believe in reincarnation"
This misconception is understandable, given that Tibetan Buddhists (such as the Dalai Lama), who do believe in a form of reincarnation, are perhaps the most "visible" of the many sects of Buddhism. Also, watching recent movies like Little Buddha, Seven Years in Tibet or Kundun, might lead one to believe that Tibetan Buddhism is "representative" of Buddhism in general. However, Shin Buddhists generally treat belief in reincarnation in the same way we treat belief in a god: We don't give it much thought. What's important is not which Buddhists believe in reincarnation and which don't, but that all Buddhists do strive to awaken to one central teaching: The universal truth of the impermanent and interdependent nature of all life. As our awareness of this truth awakens, so does our awareness of compassion.
http://www.livingdharma.org/Misconceptions.html

[PadmaVonSamba]

It is nice to hear from you again.
I thought you'd left forever.

There are a lot of reasons why that very interesting quote does not accurately describe rebirth or karma in the Buddhists sense.
First of all, the idea of a soul that reincarnates is not accurate, and from that, the explanation of karma is not accurate.

The Buddhist understanding of rebirth has to do with the co-emergent and simultaneous effect of a multitude of actions. In other words, not a single 'soul' but a whole bunch of stuff that we think of as a single "me" is going on all at the same time, and every action of the body, speech and mind is causing ripples and effects that manifest later the same way that a seed planted today will become a plant.

Richard Pettinger's understanding of "reincarnation" is like describing a single domino (soul)
being handed from one person to another in a long line of people.

The Buddhist understanding of 'rebirth' is more like a line of dominoes tipping over,
each one causing the movement of the next,
and it is that movement which is referred to as samsaric existence.
The movement stops when the cause is interrupted.
When the mind is still, the dominoes stop falling, the movement of rebirth ceases.

While I do not believe in reincarnation...

One does not have to believe in rebirth in order to follow the teachings of the dharma.
Rebirth is generally the reason, and the majority of Buddhists probably subscribe to the idea of rebirth,
but many people have found other reasons for practicing dharma.

If the final destination for everyone is nirvana, why does it matter if it takes many lifetimes to attain?

That is a brilliant question! It probably doesn't matter!.
However, the reason for the hurry is that all beings undergo a constant striving to be free from unhappiness and suffering, and often do things thinking such and such an action will bring them contentment at last,
when it usually only brings contentment for a short time, or perhaps makes matters worse.
I suppose it is just an assumption that if a person is suffering from being discontent,
that they want to remedy this situation as quickly as possible.

[Serenity509]

There are a lot of reasons why that very interesting quote does not accurately describe rebirth or karma in the Buddhists sense.

I take it as Buddha saying, "So what if there is no afterlife? Let's focus on living virtuously and joyously in the here and now."

[Malcolm]

While I do not believe in reincarnation...

Then Buddhism is definitely not for you.

If there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. - Siddhārtha Gautama

He was not teaching the Kalamas transcendent Dharma. He was teaching them the worldly dharma of the four brahma viharas.

As I said, if you don't believe in rebirth, Buddhist Dharma is not for you.

N

[Malcolm]

One does not have to believe in rebirth in order to follow the teachings of the dharma.

There is no point in following Buddhadharma if you do not accept rebirth.

N

[Serenity509]

One does not have to believe in rebirth in order to follow the teachings of the dharma.

There is no point in following Buddhadharma if you do not accept rebirth.

N

"All Buddhists believe in reincarnation"
This misconception is understandable, given that Tibetan Buddhists (such as the Dalai Lama), who do believe in a form of reincarnation, are perhaps the most "visible" of the many sects of Buddhism. Also, watching recent movies like Little Buddha, Seven Years in Tibet or Kundun, might lead one to believe that Tibetan Buddhism is "representative" of Buddhism in general. However, Shin Buddhists generally treat belief in reincarnation in the same way we treat belief in a god: We don't give it much thought. What's important is not which Buddhists believe in reincarnation and which don't, but that all Buddhists do strive to awaken to one central teaching: The universal truth of the impermanent and interdependent nature of all life. As our awareness of this truth awakens, so does our awareness of compassion.
http://www.livingdharma.org/Misconceptions.html

[Malcolm]

Shin Buddhists

"The bodhisattva who established the vow to liberate all sentient beings in the universe through the utterance of his name and who became Amida Buddha through its fulfillment. The Primal Vow and the aeons of religious practice that was necessary for its fulfillment are, strictly speaking, those of Bodhisattva Dharmakara."

Without rebirth, there would have been no Amitabha.

N

[Serenity509]

There is no question that many Buddhists, East and West, continue to believe in individual reincarnation. Parables from the sutras and "teaching aids" like the Tibetan Wheel of Life tend to reinforce this belief.

The Rev. Takashi Tsuji, a Jodo Shinshu priest, wrote about belief in reincarnation:

"It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

"...A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality."

What's the Point?

People often turn to religion for doctrines that provide simple answers to difficult questions. Buddhism doesn't work that way. Merely believing in some doctrine about reincarnation or rebirth has no purpose. Buddhism is a practice that enables experiencing illusion as illusion and reality as reality.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandre ... nation.htm

[Malcolm]

There are many so called "Buddhists" who pervert the Dharma for their own ends.

Rebirth is not an option in Buddhism, despite what some deluded fools might think.

There is no question that many Buddhists, East and West, continue to believe in individual reincarnation. Parables from the sutras and "teaching aids" like the Tibetan Wheel of Life tend to reinforce this belief.

The Rev. Takashi Tsuji, a Jodo Shinshu priest, wrote about belief in reincarnation:

"It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

"...A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality."

What's the Point?

People often turn to religion for doctrines that provide simple answers to difficult questions. Buddhism doesn't work that way. Merely believing in some doctrine about reincarnation or rebirth has no purpose. Buddhism is a practice that enables experiencing illusion as illusion and reality as reality.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandre ... nation.htm

[Serenity509]

Whether or not you believe in it, why not look at reincarnation as a net positive? Why not appreciate the journey?

As a Westerner, I have trouble believing in any concept of the afterlife without sufficient evidence. The most I can say is that good is somehow rewarded and evil is somehow punished.

[Malcolm]

Whether or not you believe in it, why not look at reincarnation as a net positive? Why not appreciate the journey?

Rebirth happens because our minds are tainted with three poisons.

As a Westerner, I have trouble believing in any concept of the afterlife without sufficient evidence.

That's fine but that is not the point.

The point is that Buddha not only taught rebirth, but he defined the four types of awakened people [stream entrants, once returners, never returners and arhats] by how many rebirths they had remaining before they would achieve nirvana.

It is true that he did not equate worldly happiness with belief in rebirth, since there were plenty of people in India during his day who also did not believe in rebirth. That is why he taught the brahmaviharas to lay people. The practice of them guarantees mental happiness whether one should accept rebirth or not.

But that is not Buddhism. Buddhism is predicated on the goal of ending rebirth in samsara through the eradication of the three poisons, desire, hatred and confusion, which arise because of ignorance.

[Serenity509]

But that is not Buddhism. Buddhism is predicated on the goal of ending rebirth in samsara through the eradication of the three poisons, desire, hatred and confusion, which arise because of ignorance.

Is this true? -

In Buddhism the concept of liberation is Nirvana. It is referred to as "the highest happiness" and is the goal of the Theravada-Buddhist path, while in the Mahayana it is seen as a secondary effect of becoming a fully enlightened Buddha (Samyaksambuddha).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha#Buddhism

[PadmaVonSamba]

Whether or not you believe in it, why not look at reincarnation as a net positive? Why not appreciate the journey?

As a Westerner, I have trouble believing in any concept of the afterlife without sufficient evidence. The most I can say is that good is somehow rewarded and evil is somehow punished.

If we start with the premise of life and death in the usual way we are taught to think about it, then rebirth does not sound very plausible. But what is death? it is when the body ceases to function and the causes of cognitive awareness are no longer manifesting through the chemistry of the brain.

Usually, we think that the brain causes thoughts to occur. but the brain is merely made of carbons, acids, salts, and other chemicals which do not think. They do not witness their own existence. How can consciousness arise from a collection of things which have no consciousness?

Furthermore, you do not have to die to see rebirth. It is happening constantly. Consider the fact that the body you had as a child is gone. All of those cells died and were replaced by new cells long ago. Little by little, the body of that kid died. Yet, a continuous stream of separate thoughts (experienced falsely as one single string of "self") has continued up to this very moment. This is the 'self' that we doubt can take rebirth. It is logical to doubt that, because the premise of an actual self or soul is mistaken to begin with(according to Buddhism).

But when we consider the thought process as millions of constantly changing moments, then rebirth is fully plausible, because the causes of cognition exist whether or not the chemistry through which we experience those causes exists or not.
So, for example, a tree exists even if a blind person cannot see it.

The idea that karma is some sort of cosmic legal system is very commonly held.
But if it were true, then there would have to be some kind of objective reason for why one type of behavior is better than another, and some sort of objective rationale for why a type of punishment or reward is appropriate.

You may notice that there are no 'sins' in Budhism as there are in God religions. (although the term is often used, especially in some translations of Pure Land commentaries). Why is this? Didn't the Buddha tell people, for example, not to kill living creatures?

The Buddha taught a direct path to freedom from suffering.
He also advised against doing things which cause one to veer off that path. So, he said don't kill.
So, killing is part of our existence. In and of itself, it is not good nor bad. But it can have the effect of causing misery, and of causing all sorts of problems for everyone , including the killer. It can take you miles off the main road.

This 'self' we experience is a figment of the imagination, yet it is experienced as real and solid. So, we experience life and death in that 'real' context, and some people then try to fit the idea of karma into that context, but they do so mistakenly. We experience the negative results of killing because our experience of this illusory world seems real. You create your own punishment and reward. However, even a killer without remorse experiences the negative results of killing because the very fact of no remorse (which should be there) is evidence of much deeper suffering and any killing would only add to that at some point.

If you gather all the components of cognition and are able to control them, then you can, as you say, take rebirth as you like, and do so with eager anticipation. You can be a tulku. But most of us don't do that so when our physical bodies quit, our thoughts are scattered the way a a cart loaded with wood is scattered into the water if it drives off a bridge. the wood floats away in all directions.

But if you take mastery of the processes of the mind, this is like taking that same wood and first making a boat from it. Then when it hits the water, it stays together and you can steer it to the other shore.

[Malcolm]

But that is not Buddhism. Buddhism is predicated on the goal of ending rebirth in samsara through the eradication of the three poisons, desire, hatred and confusion, which arise because of ignorance.

Is this true? -

In Buddhism the concept of liberation is Nirvana. It is referred to as "the highest happiness" and is the goal of the Theravada-Buddhist path, while in the Mahayana it is seen as a secondary effect of becoming a fully enlightened Buddha (Samyaksambuddha).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha#Buddhism

In order to become a fully awakened Buddha one must eradicated the three poisons caused by ignorance which result in rebirth in samsara.

There are two obscurations, the afflictive obscuration caused by the three poisons, and the knowledge obscuration. To attain the result that is the desiderate of Theravada, one must only remove the first. From a Mahāyāna perspective, one must remove both completely in order to become a Buddha.

But in both cases, it is necessary to cease having rebirth in samsara.

N

[Serenity509]

I think this is relevant to almost any discussion we have:

Then the Buddha gave advice of extreme importance to the group of Brahmins: ‘It is not proper for a wise man who maintains (lit. protects) truth to come to the conclusions: “This alone is Truth, and everything else is false”.’

Asked by the young Brahmin to explain the idea of maintaining or protecting truth, the Buddha said: ‘A man has a faith. If he says “This is my faith”, so far he maintains truth. But by that he cannot proceed to the absolute conclusions: “This alone is Truth, and everything else is false”.’ In other words, a man may believe what he likes, and he may say ‘I believe this’. So far he respects truth. But because of his belief or faith, he should not say that what he believes is alone the Truth, and everything else is false.

The Buddha says: ‘To be attached to one thing (to a certain view) and to look down upon other things (views) as inferior – this the wise men call a fetter.’[29]

Once the Buddha explained[30] the doctrine of cause and effect to his disciples, and they said that they saw it and understood it clearly. Then the Buddha said:

‘O bhikkhus, even this view, which is so pure and so clear, if you cling to it, if you fondle it, if you treasure it, if you are attached to it, then you do not understand that the teacher is similar to a raft, which is for crossing over, and not for getting hold of.’[31]

...Mālunkyaputta, if anyone says: “I will not lead the holy life under the Blessed One until he explains these questions,” he may die with these questions unanswered by the Tathāgata. Suppose Mālunkyaputta, a man is wounded by a poisoned arrow, and his friends and relatives bring him to a surgeon. Suppose the man should then say: “I will not let this arrow be taken out until I know who shot me; whether he is a Ksattiya (of the warrior caste) or a Brāhmana (of the priestly caste) or a Vaiśya (of the trading and agricultural caste) or a Sūdra (of the low caste); what his name and family may be; whether he is tall, short, or of medium stature; whether his complexion is black, brown, or golden: from which village, town or city he comes. I will not let this arrow be taken out until I know the kind of bow with which I was shot; the kind of bowstring used; the type of arrow; what sort of feather was used on the arrow and with what kind of material the point of the arrow was made.” Mālunkyaputta, that man would die without knowing any of these things. Even so, Mālunkyaputta, if anyone says: “I will not follow the holy life under the Blessed One until he answers these questions such as whether the universe is eternal or not, etc.,” he would die with these questions unanswered by the Tathāgata.’

Then the Buddha explains to Mālunkyaputta that the holy life does not depend on these views. Whatever opinion one may have about these problems, there is birth, old age, decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, distress, “the Cessation of which (i.e. Nirvāna) I declare in this very life.”

‘Therefore, Mālunkyaputta, bear in mind what I have explained as explained and what I have not explained as unexplained. What are the things that I have not explained? Whether the universe is eternal or not etc., (those 10 opinions) I have not explained. Why, Mālunkyaputta, have I not explained them? Because it is not useful, it is not fundamentally connected with the spiritual holy life, is not conducive to aversion, detachment, cessation, tranquility, deep penetration, full realization, Nirvāna. That is why I have not told you about them.
http://www.buddhistedu.org/en/buddhist- ... er&start=3

[Malcolm]

I think this is relevant to almost any discussion we have:

Buddhism is not a "invent it was we go along" type of religion.

Also, insisting on the vital role rebirth plays in Buddha's teaching is not the same thing as speculatively insisting that one's own views are correct where everyone else's are wrong.

N