paramhansa yogananda

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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:18 pm

Monks can only engage in jnanamudra.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=6525&p=77381#p77381


To claim that monks can engage in physical karmamudra is ridiculous.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:39 pm

ConradTree wrote:Monks can only engage in jnanamudra.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 381#p77381

To claim that monks can engage in physical karmamudra is ridiculous.


That is what I have been taught, as well as it being reserved for Aryan Bodhisattvas etc. as per the Gelug line. It was in the context of the how and why the bodhisattva vows superseding the pratimoksha vows, and the tantric vows superseding the bodhisattva vows. At a later date when the subject came up about a monk that had fathered a child, my teacher said, "Well, that is a downfall" since karmamudra does not produce children. However I doubt karmamudra would be welcomed if it became obvious inside a monastery. That would be a little disruptive. Other sects may have different perspectives.

And again, the teacher that explained this to you was from which sect?
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:32 pm

smcj wrote:That is what I have been taught, as well as it being reserved for Aryan Bodhisattvas etc. as per the Gelug line. It was in the context of the how and why the bodhisattva vows superseding the pratimoksha vows, and the tantric vows superseding the bodhisattva vows. At a later date when the subject came up about a monk that had fathered a child, my teacher said, "Well, that is a downfall" since karmamudra does not produce children. However I doubt karmamudra would be welcomed if it became obvious inside a monastery. That would be a little disruptive. Other sects may have different perspectives.


Do you have any evidence to claim that monks are allowed to engage in physical karmamudra?

Its a ridiculous claim on so many levels.

And Arya Bodhisattva has nothing to do with the issue.

smcj wrote:And again, the teacher that explained this to you was from which sect?


The issue is your ridiculous claim. The onus is on you to substantiate it. I am not the one making these claims.

If you can't substantiate your claims, then stop spreading falsehoods.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:54 pm

ConradTree wrote:
smcj wrote:That is what I have been taught, as well as it being reserved for Aryan Bodhisattvas etc. as per the Gelug line. It was in the context of the how and why the bodhisattva vows superseding the pratimoksha vows, and the tantric vows superseding the bodhisattva vows. At a later date when the subject came up about a monk that had fathered a child, my teacher said, "Well, that is a downfall" since karmamudra does not produce children. However I doubt karmamudra would be welcomed if it became obvious inside a monastery. That would be a little disruptive. Other sects may have different perspectives.


Do you have any evidence to claim that monks are allowed to engage in physical karmamudra?

Its a ridiculous claim on so many levels.

And Arya Bodhisattva has nothing to do with the issue.

smcj wrote:And again, the teacher that explained this to you was from which sect?


The issue is your ridiculous claim. The onus is on you to substantiate it. I am not the one making these claims.

If you can't substantiate your claims, then stop spreading falsehoods.

Are you aware that a monk may drink alcohol during an initiation? How is that not a downfall? It is the exact same thing.
Last edited by smcj on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:55 pm

smcj wrote:Are you aware that a monk may drink alcohol during an initiation? How is that not a downfall?


Is this your evidence?
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:31 pm

ConradTree wrote:
smcj wrote:Are you aware that a monk may drink alcohol during an initiation? How is that not a downfall?


Is this your evidence?

I just e-mailed someone and had them ask their lharampa geshe. I got this reply:

"If the monk is a true Arya Bodhisattva, he is free From the delusion of attachment
A vow breaksge has to happen in connection with a delusion to be a defeat.

Hence, in exceptional circumstances that monk would not have to disrobe before taking a wisdom mother."

As I said earlier in this thread, this was in the context of an Arya Bodhisattva, as per what are pretty much the Gelug prerequisites for karmamudra practice anyway.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Amazing response time!

Name this Geshe who coincidently uses the exact same language of this thread.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:32 pm

smcj wrote:Because karmamudra practice isn't sex.


Nonsense.

Like Loppon Namdrol said, if your partner hasn't received the correct empowerments, you can't have any kind of sex with them:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5330&p=57200#p57200

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5330&p=57200#p57288

In other words, differentiating between sex and karmamudra is completely fallacious for Vajrayanists.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am

Geshe Sonam Ngodrup, Sera Jey monastery who I incidentally have translated for for the last three and a half years (my identity as well as his is easy to confirm with a simple internet search).

Geshela is a Lharampa rscholar who graduated in first division throughout his time as a student completed studies at Gyumed tantric college as well. He taught petri or scripture at Jey dratsang for 10 yeard, one of only 16 petrigeygan officially appointed by the monastery, and about 200 students chose to study with him.

The language is similar because Geshe la asked me to read a little of the thread to him to give context to the discussion. Do note he mentions extraordinary cases...and I understand that meant the Dalai Lamas were consulted.

Incidentally, I am at Sera for two more weeks,and will translate for Geshela' s uncle at an ordination ceremony today. His uncle is the sitting abbot of Jey dratsang and former abbot of Gyumey Tantric college.

I would ask him, but afraid you'd ask for a signed affidavit which I cannot arrange.

Similar statements from zopa Rinpoche can be found if you google Lama Zopa Serkong Rinpoche and wisdomother, where he relates the history of Serkong Rinpoche.

Eminent figures have been spoken to. Incidentally if Malcolm (as he prefers now) were to tead this I don't think he'd be incredulous because he has been around long enough to have heard it before.

I was hoping to stay out of contentious discussions but felt I had to respond as you called sjmc's honesty into question rather harshly. Excuse the typos everyone this is being sent out from a tiny mibile in rural India.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:03 am

JKhedrup wrote:Eminent figures have been spoken to. Incidentally if Malcolm (as he prefers now) were to tead this I don't think he'd be incredulous because he has been around long enough to have heard it before.


In general, the Sakyapa POV is that monks use a jñānamudra.

On the other hand, practitioners who have accomplished the path of strong heat are not capable of breaking samaya, so if they use a karmamudra??? This is a difficult point.

Beyond this however, Vajrayogini, for Sakyapas, obviates the need for kamramudra.

Finally, in Dzogchen, Karmamudra is criticized as being a lower path. Even Saraha criticizes it...
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:07 am

Thanks JKhedrup.

I think the worst thing that can happen from this thread is if the idea "monks can do tantric sex" is what is understood by the casual reader. That possibility makes me very uncomfortable. The point I was trying to make was that, from the Gelug standpoint, karmamudra is not "sex" per se. It does not matter that we cannot look at that action and see it as anything other than what we think of as sex. Our imagination automatically tries to make something outside our experience fit into what we think we already know. In our unawareness we try to make great awareness fit into our worldview. That is why the ChNN quote is so apropos to so much of dharma practice.

In Vajrayana it is said the poisons are transmuted into medicine. I've heard the analogy of a poisonous snake bite used. It turns out that the antidote for a snakebite is made from venom. But untransmuted venom is still poison. At no point in Vajrayana (Gelug perspective, but applicable to other schools too) is venom, or the defilements, to be indulged in. That's like getting bitten by a snake, going to the hospital, and then getting bitten by another snake once there. You don't want that. You want the antidote to the poison, not more of the poison. That's why the Gelug school keeps those types practices exclusive to people that aren't going to use them to poison themselves even more.

My schooling in this is very much from the Gelug camp. Nyingmapas have a different idea about things. But there aren't many Nyingma monks to begin with, so they don't really factor much in the present discussion. Even though I self-identify as a Karma Kagyu practitioner, I actually can't say anything about the Karma Kagyu take on any of this because I have not had those discussions with any KK lineage lamas. And I've only met a couple Sakya lamas in my entire life. So yes, my perspective is not universally accepted, but even so it highlights an important point about a very misunderstood subject.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:14 am

They key point here is the phrase extraordinary exceptions, I am thinking one hand might be enough to count the instances of the last couple hundred years.

I too worry about people overstatibg this practice, which is why I pulled out of the discussion. I fear this will quickly become a huge headache for me.

But one of my pet peeves, along with sulphur salt in lemon sodas and mullet haircuts, is to see false accusations of lying hurled at people.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby haha » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:02 am

Topic and discussion r not matching.

withywindel wrote:
The Dalai Lama said he would not reach enlightenment in this lifetime because he did not have a consort.


This statement is really doubtful; difficult to believe he said so. I believe he is really clear about purpose and attainment of such practices.

Now in Maha-anuttaratantrayana for male in certain cases and at a certain stage you may need female helper and for female in the same condition you may need male for helper. Not in the ordinary sense of sexual intercourse. With full preparation and full control of the nerve centres and inner airs, the sex organs act like instruments to stop or to minimize the grosser consciousnesses. As soon as the grosser consciousness stops the subtle consciousness becomes active.

Commentary on Gyalwa Gyatso By His Holiness the Dalai Lama at Dharamsala, India September 1984 (from http://www.lamayeshe.com)


There r many different techniques and meanings of such practices. Sex and karmamudra r quite different. If one has strong passion etc, then one can utilize such thing/garbage by the method of transformation without renouncing. But it is not always necessary. If one has not capacity to control/manipulate prana and bindu with the power of mind/samadhi, then such practice might be helpful. According to Amritakanika, first mudra is not for the person who has sharp faculty. If one is more accomplished in control of prana and bindu through samadhi, then one can do without physical partner (i.e. second mudra or other).

I think Buddhadharma esp Mahayana is not for the purpose of only own enlightenment. Even one's conduct should motivate other to practice the Dharma and then they might attain complete realization; but not to create confusion.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:18 am

My concern is the Western obcession with sex makes any discussion of these issues very dangerous. There is already enough garbage marketing about sacred sex in the new age community.

These practoces are just way too advanced to be necessary for most of us.

If VY or Dzogchen make the practices unnecessary, then I would recommend the Arya Bodhisattva monks practice those. But I am not reaaly in a position tp make any recommendation to Arya Bodhisattvas.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:48 pm

JKhedrup wrote:These practoces are just way too advanced to be necessary for most of us.



What do you mean by "too advanced"?

If both people have the proper empowerments, whats the problem?
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby ConradTree » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:51 pm

JKhedrup wrote:My concern is the Western obcession with sex makes any discussion of these issues very dangerous.


All mammals (dogs, cats, etc.) are obsessed with sex.

JKhedrup wrote:There is already enough garbage marketing about sacred sex in the new age community.


I don't see the relevance to Vajrayana practices.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby theanarchist » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:23 pm

haha wrote:Topic and discussion r not matching.

withywindel wrote:
The Dalai Lama said he would not reach enlightenment in this lifetime because he did not have a consort.


This statement is really doubtful; difficult to believe he said so. I believe he is really clear about purpose and attainment of such practices..



Indeed. Because that would incline that he admits he is qualified to practice with a consort. Which means he claims he is an arya bodhisattva and/or has great realisation. Which he would never publicly do even if I personally think if anyone is qualified then it's him.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:23 pm

ConradTree wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:These practoces are just way too advanced to be necessary for most of us.

What do you mean by "too advanced"?

Too difficult to do properly to get the correct result.
If both people have the proper empowerments, whats the problem?

Instead of resulting in liberation it results in more obscurations and unawareness. See below.*
My concern is the Western obcession with sex makes any discussion of these issues very dangerous.

All mammals (dogs, cats, etc.) are obsessed with sex.

*Yes, exactly. And they are heavily burdened by unawareness, just like our present state.
There is already enough garbage marketing about sacred sex in the new age community.

I don't see the relevance to Vajrayana practices.

I suggest that you find an authentic teacher, of any lineage, and have that conversation face to face. You'll probably find a Nyingmapa to be the most accommodating of your wishes and perspective, and a Gelugpa the least accommodating.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby smcj » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:30 pm

The Dalai Lama said he would not reach enlightenment in this lifetime because he did not have a consort.


This statement is really doubtful; difficult to believe he said so. I believe he is really clear about purpose and attainment of such practices..

I believe he is following in the footsteps of Tsongkhapa, who said and did (or more accurately declined to do) the same thing in order to make a point about consort practice. However the same opportunity for spiritual advancement is present at the moment of death, so I don't think he is denying himself much.

Mods: I think this thread should have been split off a while back, don't ya think?
Last edited by smcj on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paramhansa yogananda

Postby theanarchist » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:32 pm

ConradTree wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:These practoces are just way too advanced to be necessary for most of us.



What do you mean by "too advanced"?

If both people have the proper empowerments, whats the problem?



Problem is, if one or both are not qualified it's going to go wrong.

I vaguely remember from somewhere that if consort problem goes wrong, then you end in vajra hell because there is noone left to confess to. I totally don't know anymore where I heard or red that but I only vaguely remember that it has something to do with the inner deities that are connected to the subtle body that have become your refuge and that you botched up.

Does anyone have reliable information what happens if consort practice is done by unqualified people and goes wrong?
Last edited by theanarchist on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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