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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:37 am 
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I confirmed just now with Geshe Sonam, the qualification for consort practice in our tradition is that one must be an Arya Bodhisattva.

He also mentioned many hold LTK was already enlightened from a previous lifetime, but manifested the aspect of delaying enlightenment until the bardo in order yo emphasize monastic ethics as an essential assisting factor on the path.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:16 am 
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Location: the Netherlands and India
Adi sorry as this was during a tantric teaching of HHDL it is not widely available on line. Here in India I also don't have my usual resources, but I will try to come back later to this when I am near those resources again.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:21 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
Adi sorry as this was during a tantric teaching of HHDL it is not widely available on line. Here in India I also don't have my usual resources, but I will try to come back later to this when I am near those resources again.


Thank you for telling me. I appreciate it very much as this is a subject that has come up occasionally with some of my sangha friends and I am interested to hear what HHDL has to say. And of course if it involves a non-public teaching I certainly understand that and wouldn't ask further. I look forward to anything you might have available and kindly feel free to PM me if that is better.

Adi


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:06 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
I confirmed just now with Geshe Sonam, the qualification for consort practice in our tradition is that one must be an Arya Bodhisattva..



That's actually the case in any tradition. Because if you don't have a stable realisation of emotiness nature the act will inevitably end in more attachment.


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:07 pm 
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kvy wrote:
Dear Omnifriend,

I have been practicing Kriya Yoga for years as part of my Dharma practice, and find it to be totally compatible. The point is to use breath and intention to move the prana into the central channel. Similar practices, called Tsa-Lung, are found in the part Vajrayana Buddhism known as Anu Yoga. My Lama, a Nyingmapa Master, is well aware of and supports my Kriya practice!!



Completion stage practices are only superficially similar to what is usualy referred to as "yoga".

Unless you have sufficient experience in generation stage you can't practice them successfully anyway and if you are qualified you need direct transmission of these teachings from your master.

The yoga you are doing now may be healthy for the energy body in general if done correctly, but they will not have the effect of completion stage meditation and they are certainly not interchangeable.


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Prana? What is prana? :D


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
I have heard that in the course of his 60 year teaching carreer HHDL said he encountered 2 or 3 yogis attained enough to really benefit from consort practice.

Do you have a source for that? I'd like to be able to quote it and give the source elsewhere.

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:36 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
I confirmed just now with Geshe Sonam, the qualification for consort practice in our tradition is that one must be an Arya Bodhisattva.

He also mentioned many hold LTK was already enlightened from a previous lifetime, but manifested the aspect of delaying enlightenment until the bardo in order yo emphasize monastic ethics as an essential assisting factor on the path.

A little background to this for this for those that are unfamiliar:

The same opportunity for final realization is present with consort practice and also at the moment of death. LTK had reached the point where it would have been appropriate for him to do consort practice and therefore achieve final realization while alive, but declined to do, not because it would have been un-dharmic, but because unaware people would have misinterpreted it as him having sex. Consort practice is not "sex" per se, but it is impossible for samsaric beings to imagine that action to be anything other than what they normally think of as sex.

As I am overly fond of quoting ChNN:
"A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits." LTK knew this and did the bodhisattva thing of delaying his final realization in order to set an example for monastic discipline.

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:34 pm 
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smcj wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
LTK had reached the point where it would have been appropriate for him to do consort practice and therefore achieve final realization while alive, but declined to do, not because it would have been un-dharmic, but because unaware people would have misinterpreted it as him having sex.

For those individuals who do engage in consort practice, are you saying that those individuals simply don't care if people misinterpret what they're doing, or that they see the benefits resulting from consort practice outweighing the potential drawbacks?


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Smjc,

As I am in India currently I don't have access to my usual resources and am working from a handphone. Once I am back in Europe next month I can check for the sources

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Jetavan wrote:
smcj wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
LTK had reached the point where it would have been appropriate for him to do consort practice and therefore achieve final realization while alive, but declined to do, not because it would have been un-dharmic, but because unaware people would have misinterpreted it as him having sex.

For those individuals who do engage in consort practice, are you saying that those individuals simply don't care if people misinterpret what they're doing, or that they see the benefits resulting from consort practice outweighing the potential drawbacks?

LTK was a reformer who saw tantric practices being misused, and tried to re-establish moral discipline in Dharma practice. He was setting an example.

As has been quoted earlier in the thread:
Quote:
...the qualification for consort practice in our tradition is that one must be an Arya Bodhisattva.

And
Quote:
I have heard that in the course of his 60 year teaching carreer HHDL said he encountered 2 or 3 yogis attained enough to really benefit from consort practice.


If you're an Aryan Bodhisattva, of which HHDL has evidently met 2-3, then you're a candidate. Basically almost nobody is evolved enough to do actual consort practice, but there are multitudes that want to try, just like in LTK's time.

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Gwenn Dana wrote:
Prana? What is prana? :D


Breath/breathing practice. However it's really subtle energy practice as subtle energy is cultivated and manipulated via breathing practices.

Kirt

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Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:11 am 
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Sakya Loppon Namdrol calls a lot of these Gelugpa views as "propaganda to keep monks monks."

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4420&start=40#p44931

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=6525&p=77375#p77375


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:49 am 
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ConradTree wrote:
Sakya Loppon Namdrol calls a lot of these Gelugpa views as "propaganda to keep monks monks."

Yes, as has just been discussed, LTK declined the practice because unaware people would misinterpret his actions. His point was to emphasize the Vinaya.

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A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:18 am 
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Namdrol (Malcolm as he prefers now) is certainly a great scholar but in this case I think his opinion is overstated.

As well as LTK, scholars from other schools such as Shabkar, Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye snd Patrul Rinpoche also speak of unqualified consort practice and its pitfalls.

Incidentally, many Gelug monks have told me the strictest discipline in Tibet was at the Ngor Sakya monastery.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:46 am 
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Posts: 303
Noone argued for unqualified karmamudra practice in any way.

Of course both people must have the proper empowerments.

The issue is that the Gelug view of being qualified for karmamudra is way beyond the Sakya, Nyingma and Kagyu views, since they want to keep monks as monks.

Only in the Gelug school are all people monks for life. In the other schools, monkhood is a life phase before marriage.

JKhedrup wrote:
Incidentally, many Gelug monks have told me the strictest discipline in Tibet was at the Ngor Sakya monastery.


What does this have to do with the topic? Monks can never engage in karmamudra.


Last edited by ConradTree on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:18 am 
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False, it is not a life phase befire marriage.

All but one of the 17 Karmapas were monks for life. As well as the Situ Rinpoches, Shabkar, Longchenpa, Dza Patrul Rinpoche, Luding Khen Rinpoche, Karma Kuchen Rinpoche, Sharmapa, Chobgye Trichen Rinpoche- the list goes on and on. Look up Penor Rinpoche's views on the subject.

Your description makes it sound like the Hindu Varnashrama stage of Brahmacarya. Some hihh lamas do marry later, but I think to say most is a great exaggeration

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Last edited by JKhedrup on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:21 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
All but one of the 17 Karmapas were monks for life. As well as the Situ Rinpoches, Shabkar, Longchenpa- the list goes on and on. Look up Penor Rinpoche's views on the subject..


For many people and lamas in the Kaygu, Nyingma and Sakya monkhood is a life phase before marriage.

Only in the Gelug school are ALL people monks for life.

P.S. Obviously Karmapas are monks.


Last edited by ConradTree on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:46 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 am 
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Some exceptions to this generalization as well- in Gelug the previous Serkong Dorjechang and Gomo Tulku took wisdom mothers. Though I agree it is very rare.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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 Post subject: Re: paramhansa yogananda
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:30 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
All but one of the 17 Karmapas were monks for life. As well as the Situ Rinpoches, Shabkar, Longchenpa, Dza Patrul Rinpoche, Luding Khen Rinpoche, Karma Kuchen Rinpoche, Sharmapa, Chobgye Trichen Rinpoche- the list goes on and on.

Was Longchenpa a lifelong celibate?

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