The all and the aggregates.

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The all and the aggregates.

Postby Inge » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:53 pm

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Is it not anything beyond the all, or is it just that it lies beyond range?

Are the five aggregates another way to classify the same all?

Once I asked a lama if enlightenment was to be found within the five aggregates. He affirmed that this was so, and said that buddhahood is found withing this fathom-long body. When I asked where, he just laughed.

In another thread it was claimed that samaya was not within the five aggregates. If this is correct, then where is it? If it is outside the five aggregates is it also not beyond range?
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Re: The all and the aggregates.

Postby truthwithin » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:41 am

Once I asked a lama if enlightenment was to be found within the five aggregates. He affirmed that this was so, and said that buddhahood is found withing this fathom-long body. When I asked where, he just laughed.

a form of enlightenment can be found within the five aggregates, but to find your enlightenment here is not true enlightenment.
it is only an illusion that in time leads to disillusion, and yes buddhahood can be found within all of us, you just got to know where to look, and how to manifests it,....... you can start with your heart and mind and progress from there....true enlightenment starts with your environment, not in empty halls that are filled only during prayer time,... its there all there time, when you interact with family, friends, enemies, colleagues etc... it is how you act, behave..... is your actions appropriate?..... as long as your heart is settled and calm when in communicating with other people, and not unsettled when communicating with other people then you are on the Path....even a journey ten thousands miles away begins with a single step.....
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Re: The all and the aggregates.

Postby ground » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:30 am

Inge wrote:Is it not anything beyond the all, or is it just that it lies beyond range?

All there is direct access to is simply the sense bases and their funtionings in the context of the aggregates:
1. the eye & forms,
2. ear & sounds,
3. nose & aromas,
4. tongue & flavors,
5. body & tactile sensations,
6. intellect & ideas.
E.g. there is nothing that may be speculated to be beyond that range which is not simply "6. intellect & ideas" and just this. So speculation is futile because you cannot leave behind the sense bases and their objects (which are both not different from the aggregates) and go beyond them. Why? Because what is called "you" or "object" is nothing other than the display of the aggregates in that it is based on experiencing 1-6 which are not different from the aggregates. And all the alleged "objects" of the sense bases are just the display of the sense bases in the context of the aggregates. ALL experience is nothing but the interactive display of the aggregates.

Inge wrote:Are the five aggregates another way to classify the same all?

Exactly. Sense base (including their object) are form. Sense consciousness is consciousness. Contact which is the meeting of sense base, its alleged object and sense consciousness entails feeling, perception and volition. Therefore there is nothing but the aggregates and positing anything beyond them is just mere speculation.

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen." means "Do not posit 'object' beyond the mere seeing!" It also means "Do not deny 'object' beyond the mere seeing." It is simply restricting to what can be accessed, what can be known. And what is it that can be known? Simply experience can be known. And what is "experience"? It is the aggregates.

"The seen" arises when seeing sees, so it is actually seeing the seeing.
"The heard" arises is when hearing hears, so it is actually hearing the hearing.
and so forth.
And so can be validly described ALL that is accessible:
1. the eye & forms,
2. ear & sounds,
3. nose & aromas,
4. tongue & flavors,
5. body & tactile sensations,
6. intellect & ideas.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

When there is restriction to what can be validly known "object" (different from or identical to aggregates) does not occur to one. If the thought of "object" (different from or identical to the aggregates) does not arise the thought "I" or "mine" (different from or identical to the aggregates) does not arise either because both "object" and "I" and "mine" are just the interactive displays of the aggregates.


Kind regards
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Re: The all and the aggregates.

Postby Dexing » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:15 am

As Tmingyur has already sufficiently responded to the rest, I will add a response to this part from my understanding:

Inge wrote:Once I asked a lama if enlightenment was to be found within the five aggregates. He affirmed that this was so, and said that buddhahood is found withing this fathom-long body. When I asked where, he just laughed.


In the Śūraṅgama Sūtra, the Buddha says;

    "Good indeed, Ananda! You wish to recognize your innate ignorance that causes you to turn on the wheel. The origin of the knot of birth and death is simply your six sense-organs and nothing else. You also want to understand unsurpassed Bodhi, so that you can quickly realize bliss, liberation, tranquility, and wonderful permanence. It, too, is your six sense-organs and nothing else."

He then explained how this could be;

    "The sense-organs and the objects are the same source. The bonds and their release are not different things. The nature of the consciousness is empty and false, like flowers in space. Ananda, awareness arises because of defiling objects. Phenomena exist because of the sense organs. The phenomena and the perception are both devoid of their own natures. They support each other like intertwining reeds. Therefore, creating knowledge within enlightened perception is fundamental ignorance. To be devoid of perception within enlightened perception is the non-outflow true purity of Nirvana. Why try to put something else in these?"

The sense-organs and the objects can also be reduced to the five aggregates, as they cannot lie beyond range, as such a place does not exist. Hence anyone who might try to describe something beyond them would have "no grounds for their statement, would be unable to explain, and would furthermore be put to grief".

In the five aggregates is ignorance and enlightened perception. Ignorance is when the five aggregates are clung to, and a myriad of illusions are created. Enlightenment is when the five aggregates are broken through, and illusions vanish.

So your question on enlightenment being found within the five aggregates is affirmed, but when you ask for a location, you've missed the point. There is no place within the five aggregates, no safe haven in which to abide. The five aggregates are empty and false. So too is the enlightenment of mere name and speech.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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