William Bodri and Nan Huai-Chin

[erdweir]

I can understand why some of you are skeptical about Bodri, he is quite a character. Not to everyone's taste for sure. His website is not fluffy or new-agey, in fact it is more crusty and abrasive. I for one like this tone, it's a relief to me after all of the watered down nonsense and misinformation out there. His marketing material is less to my taste, but i can let this go because i feel there is substance behind what he is saying when it comes to meditation and spiritual matters.

For those of you who might think he is trying to scam people 800$ for the course, you might want to know that he refused to accept me because he says he is too busy and in china so he cant do it. so it seems he doesn't need the money? I would take the course in a minute if he changed his mind, but he wont, i have asked him several times over the last couple of years.

Now why did i want to take the course? after trying out various Taoist and Buddhist meditation methods on myself and experiencing all kinds of disconcerting phenomenon, I found that Nan Huai Chin's Book "Tao and Longevity" was the only thing i could find that explained some of the phenomenon to me. And this after reading for years looking for answers!

I had the good fortune to get a free copy of Bodri"s "Measuring Meditation" pdf book because one of his customers supposedly donated $10,000 so a hundred people could get the normally $99 e-book for free. This book settled allot of my questions and doubts about what i was doing. It is co-written by Nan Huai Chin, which i think means large parts of it are transcribed and translated from Nan's private talks. Bodri says he filled in some of the gaps himself to try and make a more coherent whole out of it (only partially successful but it's still worth reading several times over). Bodri's says his contributions come into play in trying to relate Nan's eastern knowledge to western mystical traditions. I have tried some of the methods Bodri and Nan recommend, like the "white skeleton" meditation. This method blew my mind, and the information in "measuring meditation" has been invaluable to me in my practice.

I have also written Bodri personally and asked him about specific chi phenomenon and so forth and he always takes the time to write me back and give me very interesting answers. He has helped me allot. His usually timely and completely free advice is not always warm in tone. He never coddles me or wastes words (he is often abrasive and to the point) but he has gotten me through some confusion and panic and can be quite gracious and polite when treated with respect. In fact he has been the only person i can turn to when i get in a jam with meditation most of the time, and he never asks me for a dime for his help. Quite frankly I feel greatly indebted to him for his advice.

After buying Nan Huai Chin's "working towards enlightenment" and "to realize enlightenment" on the internet, and paying rather inflated prices to second hand book dealers, i found they are worth all that i paid for them, if not more. Nan is definitely the Master, Bodri the disciple. Nan's material has a elegance and depth that is amazing. His perspective seems far superior to William Bodri's, and less eccentric.

I do feel that the material on Bodri's website, much of which is free mind you (read all those free articles have you? there are tons of them..) is more expansive in terms of detail and range of topics covered. You can bet that Nan is the source of much of the hard info on spiritual matters. Bodri himself claims to have achieved Samadhi, and seems to imply that he has mastered a number of Samadhis. So if you believe him he is talking from experience. He does not seem to claim that he is enlightened.

Bodri also likes to give advice about finance an so forth; he says he used to work on wall street. I have read some of it, he has some good points, he's a critic of the system in a vein I can appreciate. He's very skeptical about the way the power structure is run and questions the wisdom of it. I come from a very different America than him though. Relating to Bodri on finance can be a stretch for me. It is also not what you might expect from a meditation teacher. As noted above, they guy is extremely eclectic.

So to recapitulate, Bodri provided me with information i desperately needed and could not find anywhere else. He gave it to me for free and never tried to sell me anything. He even refused to teach me the course with the oft slammed $800 fee several times. Nan Huai Chin and William Bodri have been a great resource for me, using their work as a guide has enabled me to understand Taoist and Buddhist scriptures much better and more easily. While I know Bodri's style is not for everybody, i have personally found his books and advice to be invaluable and his morals to be impeccable. If you dont like his tone, then i suggest reading Nan Huai Chin's work instead. If that doesnt warm you up to what Bodri is doing, then perhaps it's just not right for you. There are lots of other ways to go out there.

[longjie]

... Now why did i want to take the course? after trying out various Taoist and Buddhist meditation methods on myself and experiencing all kinds of disconcerting phenomenon, I found that Nan Huai Chin's Book "Tao and Longevity" was the only thing i could find that explained some of the phenomenon to me. And this after reading for years looking for answers! ...

Indeed, I also came upon Tao & Longevity, and I was very surprised that such a book existed. After years of Daoist practice, I finally found so many answers I had been looking for. But really, the amount of content still wasn't enough to answer all my questions. After I came upon the appendix on Buddhist cultivation of samadhi, I was impressed and shortly thereafter dropped Daoism entirely, taking up an interest in Buddhist meditation instead. I agree very much with the the way you characterize Nan and Bodri as well, and this is better than I could have done. Also, I believe Nan Huaijin is extremely eclectic as well, but he would not present himself as such or give that away. When lecturing on Buddhism, he will make some connections here and there, but his overall train of thought is clear and continuous.

[erdweir]

Indeed, I also came upon Tao & Longevity, and I was very surprised that such a book existed. After years of Daoist practice, I finally found so many answers I had been looking for. But really, the amount of content still wasn't enough to answer all my questions. After I came upon the appendix on Buddhist cultivation of samadhi, I was impressed and shortly thereafter dropped Daoism entirely, taking up an interest in Buddhist meditation instead. I agree very much with the the way you characterize Nan and Bodri as well, and this is better than I could have done. Also, I believe Nan Huaijin is extremely eclectic as well, but he would not present himself as such or give that away. When lecturing on Buddhism, he will make some connections here and there, but his overall train of thought is clear and continuous.

I can relate to that, but Master Nan and William Bodri did not so much close the door on Daoism as much as open the door to Buddhism for me. I read Bodri and Nan's Measuring Meditation Progress and Success first, and then Tao and Longevity second. These texts did steer me away from confused and pointless aspects of Daoism though.

It's unfortunate that there is so little of the Daoist canon available in translation. So much more Buddhism is available in English. I like Daoist writings very much, but they can often be cryptic and there is a tendency to talk in poetic metaphors and so on. There are some more straightforward texts like The Book of Balance and Harmony, but then ones like Understanding Reality seem needlessly esoteric, much in the manner of european alchemy books from the middle ages. My current favorite is the Huainanzi, a massive Han Dynasty text that was just published last year after 12 years of translation work.

While Buddhism can have this obfuscation as well, i find that there can be a pure rational clarity to it that I have not seen in Daoism yet. The theory can seem much more transparent to me. On the other hand, Daoism can have a poetic simplicity that I havent seen in Buddhism. Master Nan talks about this when he is discussing Yogacara theory. He says the Chinese usually dont like the complexity of things like Yogacara, they want simplicity instead. Hence Yogacara is not widely understood in China according to him.

At any rate after various half hearted attempts to read various Buddhist scriptures over the years I took the advice of Nan and Bodri and ordered some of the books they refer to allot. And now I am getting more of what I want out of it. Their explanations of Buddhism and also their comparisons of it to Daosim have opened up the literature for me. Also their comparison of Zen and Tantric Buddhism has been very useful. Having read ancient Greek Philosophy and German Idealism, as well as Kaballah and various other metaphysical theories, I find their eclectic approach helpful and interesting. I can see how it is not really for everyone though. One can easily get overwhelmed by Bodri's website. In fact that is what seems to happen to all the people I tell to look at it. Their brains all melt, they dont know where to start, and so they just give up. Information overload.

[Mr. G]

Those are some real SEO rich posts.

[erdweir]

Those are some real SEO rich posts.

SEO?

[Astus]

Those are some real SEO rich posts.

SEO?

Yes, SEO. A load of ads you guys have produced here without much contribution.

[erdweir]

Those are some real SEO rich posts.

SEO?

Yes, SEO. A load of ads you guys have produced here without much contribution.

Well I am sorry you feel that way. I was just trying to answer Inge's question. I saw this conversation here and wanted to join it. I am not trying to advertise anything. I see that above in the topic someone is accused of being a mouthpiece for Bodri as well. Perhaps you can forgive us for our appreciation for something that does not appeal to you?

I wonder why you are so suspicious? While I appreciate Bodri, I also have noted that he is crusty and abrasive, that i dont relate to his marketing that much, etc. I also commented that his work is not for everybody, and that his website tends to produce more information overload than anything else in the friends i have sent links to. hardly an advertisement.

just to clarify for Inge and anyone else who is genuinely interested, much of what is in Bodri's e-books is also available in different forms for free on his website. you dont need to buy anything from him. And good luck trying to get him to teach you the course. He told me i didn't need a teacher, I just needed to practice. Also there are several descriptions of the white skeleton meditation method on the internet for free, and so on..

[longjie]

Indeed, I also came upon Tao & Longevity, and I was very surprised that such a book existed. After years of Daoist practice, I finally found so many answers I had been looking for. But really, the amount of content still wasn't enough to answer all my questions. After I came upon the appendix on Buddhist cultivation of samadhi, I was impressed and shortly thereafter dropped Daoism entirely, taking up an interest in Buddhist meditation instead. I agree very much with the the way you characterize Nan and Bodri as well, and this is better than I could have done. Also, I believe Nan Huaijin is extremely eclectic as well, but he would not present himself as such or give that away. When lecturing on Buddhism, he will make some connections here and there, but his overall train of thought is clear and continuous.

I can relate to that, but Master Nan and William Bodri did not so much close the door on Daoism as much as open the door to Buddhism for me. I read Bodri and Nan's Measuring Meditation Progress and Success first, and then Tao and Longevity second. These texts did steer me away from confused and pointless aspects of Daoism though.

It's unfortunate that there is so little of the Daoist canon available in translation. So much more Buddhism is available in English. I like Daoist writings very much, but they can often be cryptic and there is a tendency to talk in poetic metaphors and so on. There are some more straightforward texts like The Book of Balance and Harmony, but then ones like Understanding Reality seem needlessly esoteric, much in the manner of european alchemy books from the middle ages. My current favorite is the Huainanzi, a massive Han Dynasty text that was just published last year after 12 years of translation work.

While Buddhism can have this obfuscation as well, i find that there can be a pure rational clarity to it that I have not seen in Daoism yet. The theory can seem much more transparent to me. On the other hand, Daoism can have a poetic simplicity that I havent seen in Buddhism. Master Nan talks about this when he is discussing Yogacara theory. He says the Chinese usually dont like the complexity of things like Yogacara, they want simplicity instead. Hence Yogacara is not widely understood in China according to him.

At any rate after various half hearted attempts to read various Buddhist scriptures over the years I took the advice of Nan and Bodri and ordered some of the books they refer to allot. And now I am getting more of what I want out of it. Their explanations of Buddhism and also their comparisons of it to Daosim have opened up the literature for me. Also their comparison of Zen and Tantric Buddhism has been very useful. Having read ancient Greek Philosophy and German Idealism, as well as Kaballah and various other metaphysical theories, I find their eclectic approach helpful and interesting. I can see how it is not really for everyone though. One can easily get overwhelmed by Bodri's website. In fact that is what seems to happen to all the people I tell to look at it. Their brains all melt, they dont know where to start, and so they just give up. Information overload.

True, nobody really sits around arguing about Daoist theory, and it is not so sectarian. Huainanzi was certainly an important work, but honestly I have never read more than excerpts from it. The basic symbolism and approach in many later Daoist works is basically the same as that in other alchemical traditions, albeit with different terms and so forth. Still, Daoism retains a basic purity and scientific approach that is unscathed by the sectarianism that has plagued Buddhism over the centuries. On the other hand, the obscurity of Daoist texts has led to a lot of confusion, and many people following incorrect routes. This is unfortunate in its own way. The Mahayana sutras also have a great deal of obscurity in their details, so that only people with some degree of prajna and accomplishment can really understand. Of course the main themes will come across to any reader, but the vast majority will gloss over their details. For example, in the shorter Sukhavativyuha, the Buddha tells Sariputra not to speak of the birds of Sukhavati as being retribution for evil actions. Each time I read this passage, the awkwardness of its conventional meaning makes me wonder how many readers even question it, or for that matter wonder why the Buddha would say this to Sariputra.

I think in one of his books, Nan made some sly remark about the Chinese just wanting to achieve enlightenment upon seeing plum blossoms, or something to that effect. Indian culture did tend more toward systematic logic and details, whereas Chinese culture preferred eloquence and simplicity. Neither is really better, but from this trend it becomes clear how Indian Mahayana emphasized the gradual path of a bodhisattva, whereas the Chinese emphasized the immediacy of perceiving the Dharmakaya. Still, the basic principle of the three bodies makes these two aspects fundamentally inseparable in the overall path.

Those are some real SEO rich posts.

SEO?

Yes, SEO. A load of ads you guys have produced here without much contribution.

Are you really steering the discussion in this direction? If I wanted to turn people toward Nan Huaijin's teachings, I would add content about him to my own website. Besides this, although the thread is about Bodri and Nan, most of the discussion was actually a pointless debate over gradual vs. sudden cultivation. I also doubt Nan benefits from his translations in any tangible way, and it is more likely that his translators such as Wen Kuan Chu, Thomas Cleary, and J.C. Cleary, etc., would be the benefactors. I don't care if anyone on this thread reads this or buys that, and I don't think there is any market for books by Nan or Bodri. The same goes for translations of the Buddhist sutras. Nobody buys them, which is one reason I won't bother trying to publish mine or benefit from them.

[LastLegend]

^^^The way to approach Mahayana Sutras is not through thinking and analyzing but meditative concentration as you read. This is actually a practice of concentration, so you keep reading again everyday. At least this how it goes for Sutras in Chinese and Vietnamese.

Why? Because what Buddha spoke pouring from Pure Emptiness, beyond thinking and analysis. When his disciples asked, Buddha did not pause to think, but Buddha answered without thinking and analyzing. So we cannot use our thinking and analysis to understand what Buddha spoke, only through repetitive meditative concentration on reading can we understand what he spoke.

Peace man

[Jikan]

^^^The way to approach Mahayana Sutras is not through thinking and analyzing but meditative concentration as you read. This is actually a practice of concentration.

Peace man

This is excellent, excellent advice.

[erdweir]

^^^The way to approach Mahayana Sutras is not through thinking and analyzing but meditative concentration as you read. This is actually a practice of concentration.

Peace man

This is excellent, excellent advice.

I agree completely.

You know Astus, I noticed from your other posts that you think that the Five Skandas are arbitrary constructs, like an intellectual schema. I try to approach them as real barriers to be broken through in mediation. Ontological facts that need to be transcended by spiritual work so they can be seen as empty emanations of mind. Bodri and Nan also share this view I would say, though they would doubtlessly word it better.

And other interests of yours like the location of the gods are kind of quaint to me. "trying to use the finite to understand the infinite" is how I would characterize it.

And as far as your and Gordo's SEO comments, I actually used the old incorrect title of Bodri and Nan's book by accident, Bodri has since re-named it. So if i am trying to search engine optimize I am doing a pretty bad job! I am not going to correct my reference for fear of offending you further.

Regarding what we are contributing to the discussion, I have to say that the discussion of the three bodies offered above has more substance than the bald unsupported assertions that either of you have had to offer. You guys make strong statements but give no reason or evidence why you think others should listen to what you have to say. You offer nothing but simple accusations and suspicion. not much contribution to the discussion.

I have at least tried to explain why I found Bodri and Nan's work to the helpful. if you have any questions about the details of this I would be happy to share them with you.

Just for starters, let me tell you one story. I was practicing a Daoist method sometimes known as "holding the root". It just means that you try to remain detached from all phenomena, as free of thoughts as you can manage, and not to let emotions, passions and desires trouble you at all. Much to my dismay I found myself waking up in the middle of the night feeling like lightning bolts were shooting all over my body. I have to admit i was scared half to death and was losing my grip on the "root". I wrote some e-mails to Bodri and he just told me I was starting to make progress and not to worry. My channels were just starting to transform he said and congratulated me. I found further theoretical explanation for this in his works.

Call me ignorant, but I had no idea that simple detachment could zap you with chi that intensely. I did not know that Zen and Chan also transformed the body's chi meridians and so on through emptiness. the very thorough examination of the path through the various traditions of Zen, Tantric Buddhism, Yoga, Taoism and so on showed me that the methods and descriptions were all referring to the same thing. Different methods, and different words, but dealing with the same real spiritual facts. It tied all of my own eclectic readings together and showed me that they were not eclectic at all.

I also was suspicious of the marketing nonsense at first, but you know, I eventually got over it because there is substance behind what Bodri is saying and that is more important to me than a beatific smile or some robes and incense. Spirituality does not always look like a fantasy image of a Yogi sitting on a mountaintop.

[erdweir]

I don't care if anyone on this thread reads this or buys that, and I don't think there is any market for books by Nan or Bodri. The same goes for translations of the Buddhist sutras. Nobody buys them, which is one reason I won't bother trying to publish mine or benefit from them.

I read your translation of Lu Dongbin's hundred character tablet, it's pretty good! a complementary contrast to Cleary's translation. Where did you learn Classical Chinese? I was thinking about studying it myself.

[longjie]

I don't care if anyone on this thread reads this or buys that, and I don't think there is any market for books by Nan or Bodri. The same goes for translations of the Buddhist sutras. Nobody buys them, which is one reason I won't bother trying to publish mine or benefit from them.

I read your translation of Lu Dongbin's hundred character tablet, it's pretty good! a complementary contrast to Cleary's translation. Where did you learn Classical Chinese? I was thinking about studying it myself.

Thanks, but my knowledge of Chinese is quite incomplete. I just learned through ordinary Chinese classes, and then started from there. To supplement this, I used a computer program that I developed which is able to break down sentences and present character meanings, ordinary dictionary definitions, and special Buddhist names and terms very quickly at a glance. This has really been key, and it has also helped me to learn a lot along the way. Now I am starting with a new system which translates directly into English, which is a much nicer solution for reading. In any and all cases, care has to be taken, especially when using some aids like this, because no computer system could ever be good enough. No matter the method used, the whole process is a bit tedious and requires re-checking and re-reading. With different translators it can almost be like a different language, especially with works that retain a degree of Sanskrit grammar, or which use idiosyncratic vocabularies.

[Astus]

I'm sorry if any of you was offended by my accusation. Frankly, certain posts really look like ads. But that might be just my suspicious mind.

[Mr. G]

And as far as your and Gordo's SEO comments, I actually used the old incorrect title of Bodri and Nan's book by accident, Bodri has since re-named it. So if i am trying to search engine optimize I am doing a pretty bad job! I am not going to correct my reference for fear of offending you further.

No offense erdweir, but my looking through this post (and others):

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=3354&start=40#p34003

You are basically keyword stuffing your posts and using excessive quotation marks to isolate phrases. And it really doesn't matter if you use an old title of the book, since there are ample backlinks to the new title via the old title. I'm quite familar with how writers enrich their content for SEO purposes and in all honesty, your posts are quite textbook. In all honesty if you're not purposely writing as an internet marketer....you should get in the business. And I am way more suspicious than Astus.

No worries though.

[erdweir]

I'm sorry if any of you was offended by my accusation. Frankly, certain posts really look like ads. But that might be just my suspicious mind.

No problem, just give me the benefit of the doubt if you can.

[erdweir]

And as far as your and Gordo's SEO comments, I actually used the old incorrect title of Bodri and Nan's book by accident, Bodri has since re-named it. So if i am trying to search engine optimize I am doing a pretty bad job! I am not going to correct my reference for fear of offending you further.

No offense erdweir, but my looking through this post (and others):

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=3354&start=40#p34003

You are basically keyword stuffing your posts and using excessive quotation marks to isolate phrases. And it really doesn't matter if you use an old title of the book, since there are ample backlinks to the new title via the old title. I'm quite familar with how writers enrich their content for SEO purposes and in all honesty, your posts are quite textbook. In all honesty if you're not purposely writing as an internet marketer....you should get in the business. And I am way more suspicious than Astus.

No worries though.

Well thanks for the backhanded compliments i suppose, but since I am completely innocent of what you are describing, i dont know quite how to take them. I doubt I will ever convince you of that though. And I try not to be offended by people's accusations when I know they have nothing to do with me.

I wonder what you think I am trying to do? Since my relation to Bodri and Nan is mainly one as a reader of their books, what benefit am I supposed to be reaping? Perhaps you picture me sitting back counting stacks of cash that i make from (excuse me?) occasionally posting on internet forums? And dont you ever try and give references to the materials you are trying to discuss? Or perhaps, like the poster above, you might think I am actually Bodri himself? Perhaps longjie, who shares some of my views is also Bodri in disguise?

It's interesting to me that you make no real reference to the teachings involved, and therefore make no relevant points about the subject of this forum, namely Buddhism. Maybe if you could actually show how your views differ from mine and the authors who have influenced me we could actually have a meaningful discussion.

[Mr. G]

Well thanks for the backhanded compliments i suppose

My comments were not to be taken as backhanded, nor as compliments.

..but since I am completely innocent of what you are describing, i dont know quite how to take them. I doubt I will ever convince you of that though. And I try not to be offended by people's accusations when I know they have nothing to do with me. I wonder what you think I am trying to do? Since my relation to Bodri and Nan is mainly one as a reader of their books, what benefit am I supposed to be reaping? Perhaps you picture me sitting back counting stacks of cash that i make from (excuse me?) occasionally posting on internet forums?

My comments were meant in jest, not to be taken with deadly seriousness.

Or perhaps, like the poster above, you might think I am actually Bodri himself? Perhaps longjie, who shares some of my views is also Bodri in disguise?

Actually, yes. I do think that. However, if you aren't, then we have no problems.

It's interesting to me that you make no real reference to the teachings involved, and therefore make no relevant points about the subject of this forum, namely Buddhism. Maybe if you could actually show how your views differ from mine and the authors who have influenced me we could actually have a meaningful discussion.

In terms of this particular thread topic, I have no issue with Nan Huai-Chin.
However, this does not mean I don't have the right to advise members of a site
that I deem suspect. So for example, because I work in the IT field and an
familiar with SEO, Internet marketing, etc., I can advise people that a website
that is built with a specific design to hock products, I can do so. If I or other
members find it a bit suspicious that someone is advertising "the Proper Application
of Spiritual Practices and the Kung-fu of Meditation Techniques" for $800.00, and
the lessons are given over the phone and email, I can do so. The same goes for
"Meditation For Beautiful Skin".

In terms of meaningful discussion....less of Bodri's products, more Nan Huai chin.

[Mr. G]

Thread has been cleaned.

[longjie]

"Subhuti, what do you think? Does a bodhisattva accuse others of search engine optimization?"

"No Bhagavan. Why? If a bodhisattva is holding a notion of a self, a notion of others, a notion of search engines, or a notion of optimization, then this is not one to be called a bodhisattva."

"Just so, Subhuti. Bodhisattvas should abide thusly and dwell thusly, not giving rise to notions of Google searches."

Really, what is the point in continuing this thread? Half of it has been pointless metaphysical debate (stirred up because some people can't accept talk about samadhi and physical transformations), and much of the rest consisted of accusations and defenses (unnecessary and disrespectful). The original subject of the thread was lost in the midst of this, in what should have been a simple and open discussion. Fortunately I was able to hear about someone else's experiences, and found that his general background in meditation was similar to my own.