Who had the ideas of vows? Was it taught?

[Hanzze]

Dear Kirk,

let me guess, somebody told you or you read it. How can you say he did? Form your own opinion, does it makes sense or not to look after vows?

[kirtu]

let me guess, somebody told you ]

Yes: my lamas: HH Penor Rinpoche, Khenchen Tsewang Rinpoche, HH Sakya Trizen, Kenpo Kalsang, HH Chetsang Rinpoche, Daido Roshi and other teachers.

Since you wish to throw out scholars teaching you things then please consider those consequences. Have you produced all the knowledge that you know on your own?

or you read it.

Yes, from the sutras that I have been reading since I was 12:

as long as you acknowledge the validity of the sutras:
The Muluposatha Sutta
The Uposatha Sutta
The Visakhuposatha Sutta
The Mahayana Brahma Net Sutra

and many other sutras as well as the tradition passed on the the Northern and Southern schools.

In fact the Pali Suttas are filled with the teaching of the Buddha from his lips teaching the cultivation of virtue (merit) and the abandoning of non-virtues. Here is one (I've had to give away my Suttas so I can't just select more for you at hand but if you get any of the the Sutta divisions this can be seen as a major thread through the Suttas).

How can you say he did?

Because after long examination of the teachings I have come to the conclusion that they are valid, truthful, and are the path to liberation and enlightenment. Also I have seen the effect that holding vows has had on me personally. In fact after many years of Zen Buddhist practice I came to the conclusion that I needed to formally take the five precepts and went to NYC to take them from HH Penor Rinpoche. Taking the five precepts formally was transformative.

Form your own opinion, does it makes sense or not to look after vows?

Yes it does make sense. All the vows are intended to permit us to follow the outward (and hopefully inward) behavior and experience of the Buddha, the Arya Bodhisattvas and the Arhats. The vows help us restrain physical and verbal activity and eventually mental activity so that we don't accumulate negative karma. Following the vows themselves as a sole practice will eventually result in perfect enlightenment because we are not creating new negativities, are actually creating merit and are purifying our minds.

So the precepts as a start restrain wild, non-Dharmic activity that we might be inclined to indulge in.

Then wrt monks and nuns, the Buddha had to lay down rules to formally prohibit activity that was contrary to the teaching of the First Turning of the Wheel - the Noble Eightfold Path.

Does that makes sense? Is it possible that people who didn't immediately attain Arhatship might have difficulty figuring out the path to Arhatship by themselves and specificlly how they were and were not to behave? Yes it makes sense.

The details of the arising of the Vinaya might be found in the Vinaya commentaries.

Kirt

[rose]

let me guess, somebody told you ]

Yes: my lamas: HH Penor Rinpoche, Khenchen Tsewang Rinpoche, HH Sakya Trizen, Kenpo Kalsang, HH Chetsang Rinpoche, Daido Roshi and other teachers.

Since you wish to throw out scholars teaching you things then please consider those consequences. Have you produced all the knowledge that you know on your own?

or you read it.

Yes, from the sutras that I have been reading since I was 12:

as long as you acknowledge the validity of the sutras:
The Muluposatha Sutta
The Uposatha Sutta
The Visakhuposatha Sutta
The Mahayana Brahma Net Sutra

and many other sutras as well as the tradition passed on the the Northern and Southern schools.

In fact the Pali Suttas are filled with the teaching of the Buddha from his lips teaching the cultivation of virtue (merit) and the abandoning of non-virtues. Here is one (I've had to give away my Suttas so I can't just select more for you at hand but if you get any of the the Sutta divisions this can be seen as a major thread through the Suttas).

How can you say he did?

Because after long examination of the teachings I have come to the conclusion that they are valid, truthful, and are the path to liberation and enlightenment. Also I have seen the effect that holding vows has had on me personally. In fact after many years of Zen Buddhist practice I came to the conclusion that I needed to formally take the five precepts and went to NYC to take them from HH Penor Rinpoche. Taking the five precepts formally was transformative.

Form your own opinion, does it makes sense or not to look after vows?

Yes it does make sense. All the vows are intended to permit us to follow the outward (and hopefully inward) behavior and experience of the Buddha, the Arya Bodhisattvas and the Arhats. The vows help us restrain physical and verbal activity and eventually mental activity so that we don't accumulate negative karma. Following the vows themselves as a sole practice will eventually result in perfect enlightenment because we are not creating new negativities, are actually creating merit and are purifying our minds.

So the precepts as a start restrain wild, non-Dharmic activity that we might be inclined to indulge in.

Then wrt monks and nuns, the Buddha had to lay down rules to formally prohibit activity that was contrary to the teaching of the First Turning of the Wheel - the Noble Eightfold Path.

Does that makes sense? Is it possible that people who didn't immediately attain Arhatship might have difficulty figuring out the path to Arhatship by themselves and specificlly how they were and were not to behave? Yes it makes sense.

The details of the arising of the Vinaya might be found in the Vinaya commentaries.

Kirt

Regards,
rt

[Hanzze]

You did a lot of work here, Kirt. Thank you.

The Noble Eightfold Path