Krishnamurti and Buddhism

[Mr. G]

Here is an excerpt from a book I am not familar with. It gives a short survey of Krishnamurti:

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsam ... amurti.asp

That site is very biased...against everyone it seems

[Will]

Here is an excerpt from a book I am not familar with. It gives a short survey of Krishnamurti:

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsam ... amurti.asp

That site is very biased...against everyone it seems

Nowadays (and in the recent past) lots of "gurus" are (and were) bums.

[Aemilius]

Here is an excerpt from a book I am not familar with. It gives a short survey of Krishnamurti:

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsam ... amurti.asp

That site is very biased...against everyone it seems

Nowadays (and in the recent past) lots of "gurus" are (and were) bums.

How do you know ? You can't judge a person's, or a guru's, inner consciousness from his acts, -without supernormal vision.

[gregkavarnos]

How do you know ? You can't judge a person's, or a guru's, inner consciousness from his acts, -without supernormal vision.

You can judge them on the basis of the Eightfold Noble Path.

[Will]

aemillius: How do you know ? You can't judge a person's, or a guru's, inner consciousness from his acts, -without supernormal vision.

Of course; that is why actions alone of greed, lust, anger, cruelty etc. are still a good ruler to measure with. Maitreya gave us 10 criteria to judge a good guru, if they are lacking or their opposites are obvious, then there lies a bum.

[Beatzen]

Have you seen this discussion of Trungpa Rimpoche with Krishnamurti ?

I got to the 6.30 mark and Chogyam still hadn't even batted an eyelid! Hardly a discussion, more like a rambling monologue.

Anyway... "Truth is not experienced".

Hmmmm... I don't know about that one. It seems to set up a false dualism between an object "Truth", and the experiencer of the object, the "Self" that he posits. "Truth" definitely does not arise from the notion of "Self", but it is experienced by mind. Mind, though, is one aspect of the "Self", but really the experience of "Truth" is nothing other than the experience of the true nature of the mind itself. Dharma (or wisdom) does not exist seperately from the mind.

Maybe that's what he is saying anyway, but his presentation is so long winded and rambling, that it makes no impression on me that nobody got it (from him anyway).

The thing I enjoy about students of Krisnamurti, like the ones on the forum at the krishnamurti foundation, is that they ask exceedingly simple questions. Ones that Buddhists seem to sacrifice in order to "get to" some deeper understanding of "buddhist truth." This is reminiscent to me of how Alan Watts asked "and do you know the higher self?" (and he answers himself) "well, no, but I'm trying to get there, you see." "and why are you trying to get there?" (answering) "well because then I would behave differently. Then the moralists wouldn't preach at me. Then I could feel as though I were doing my duty as a proper member of society."

Krishnamurti wouldn't engage in speculations like "wisdom does not exist seperately from the mind." Sayings like that are training wheels for someone who hasn't fully embraced groundlessness. It's a tautology for someone who is still yet attached, and therefore doubting the very wisdom they seek to cultivate trust in by reciting such expressions.

He might ask "What is wisdom?" But he wouldn't recite some (what he often called) idiotic theological interpretation of the word, and fit it into the buddhist worldview so that he could feel secure in his spiritual identity.

I think most people see Krishnamurti as long-winded because they either lack the attention span to follow him, or they are lazy.

[edit]
And about "gurus" being bums... For the sake of the thread topic I'll mention that Krishnamurti had a very low opinion of all gurus. "guru" meaning "heavy [with knowledge]", as the word is thus explained in his Awakening of Intelligence. This knowledge, he argued, is always a prison - because knowledge is memory, "stored in the brain cells" he said. I think there are a lot of similarities between Zen methodology and Krishnamurti's practice of "looking whole-heartedly, immediately" - a kind of "beginner's mind" approach.

For Krishnamurti, if one could overcome the laziness, overstimulation and dullness that keeps people from looking at themselves directly - all problems were solved.

[Beatzen]

How do you know ? You can't judge a person's, or a guru's, inner consciousness from his acts, -without supernormal vision.

You can judge them on the basis of the Eightfold Noble Path.

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others. You really shouldn't even judge yourself. You are encouraged to cultivate without hope of benefit or reward.

[edit] Now Ajahn chah was a great guru. If you can call him a guru. I love the way he complained about having to speak to audiences... the way he looked down his nose both on superficial people who would get bored and irritated with him for talking too long about the dharma (funny, because those kind of people would come to him and ask him to give "short talks") and also repulsed by "scholarly buddhists" who were proscribed the medicine (dharma), but end up only reading the "directions printed on the bottles" instead of taking those proscriptions (ie, practice)

[Adamantine]

But he wouldn't recite some (what he often called) idiotic theological interpretation of the word, and fit it into the buddhist worldview so that he could feel secure in his spiritual identity.

Either would a real "Buddhist" practitioner. Don't confuse the over-anxious eager student with the result.

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others. You really shouldn't even judge yourself. You are encouraged to cultivate without hope of benefit or reward.

I think to help you balance your view of Dharma a bit it would help to read the below composition by Patrul Rinpoche



Advice from Me to Myself
Patrul Rinpoche (1808-1887)



Vajrasattva, sole deity, Master,
You sit on a full-moon lotus-cushion of white light
In the hundred-petalled full bloom of youth.

Think of me, Vajrasattva,
You who remain unmoved within the manifest display
That is Mahamudra, pure bliss-emptiness.

Listen up, old bad-karma Patrul,
You dweller-in-distraction.

For ages now you’ve been
Beguiled, entranced, and fooled by appearances.
Are you aware of that? Are you?
Right this very instant, when you’re
Under the spell of mistaken perception
You’ve got to watch out.
Don’t let yourself get carried away by this fake and empty life.

Your mind is spinning around
About carrying out a lot of useless projects:
It’s a waste! Give it up!
Thinking about the hundred plans you want to accomplish,
With never enough time to finish them,
Just weighs down your mind.
You’re completely distracted
By all these projects, which never come to an end,
But keep spreading out more, like ripples in water.
Don’t be a fool: for once, just sit tight.

Listening to the teachings—you’ve already heard hundreds of teachings,
But when you haven’t grasped the meaning of even one teaching,
What’s the point of more listening?

Reflecting on the teachings—even though you’ve listened,
If the teachings aren’t coming to mind when needed,
What’s the point of more reflection? None.

Meditating according to the teachings—
If your meditation practice still isn’t curing
The obscuring states of mind—forget about it!

You’ve added up just how many mantras you’ve done—
But you aren’t accomplishing the kyerim visualizatiion.
You may get the forms of deities nice and clear—
But you’re not putting an end to subject and object.
You may tame what appear to be evil spirits and ghosts,
But you’re not training the stream of your own mind.

Your four fine sessions of sadhana practice,
So meticulously arranged—
Forget about them.

When you’re in a good mood,
Your practice seems to have lots of clarity—
But you just can’t relax into it.
When you’re depressed,
Your practice is stable enough
But there’s no brilliance to it.
As for awareness,
You try to force yourself into a rigpa-like state,
As if stabbing a stake into a target!

When those yogic positions and gazes keep your mind stable
Only by keeping mind tethered—
Forget about them!

Giving high-sounding lectures
Doesn’t do your mind-stream any good.
The path of analytical reasoning is precise and acute—
But it’s just more delusion, good for nothing goat-shit.
The oral instructions are very profound
But not if you don’t put them into practice.

Reading over and over those dharma texts
That just occupy your mind and make your eyes sore—
Forget about it!

You beat your little damaru drum—ting, ting—
And your audience thinks it’s charming to hear.
You’re reciting words about offering up your body,
But you still haven’t stopped holding it dear.
You’re making your little cymbals go cling, cling—
Without keeping the ultimate purpose in mind.

All this dharma-practice equipment
That seems so attractive—
Forget about it!

Right now, those students are all studying so very hard,
But in the end, they can’t keep it up.


Today, they seem to get the idea,
But later on, there’s not a trace left.
Even if one of them manages to learn a little,
He rarely applies his "learning" to his own conduct.

Those elegant dharma disciples—
Forget about them!

This year, he really cares about you,
Next year, it’s not like that.
At first, he seems modest,
Then he grows exalted and pompous.
The more you nurture and cherish him,
The more distant he grows.

These dear friends
Who show such smiling faces to begin with—
Forget about them!

Her smile seems so full of joy—
But who knows if that’s really the case?
One time, it’s pure pleasure,
Then it’s nine months of mental pain.
It might be fine for a month,
But sooner or later, there’s trouble.

People teasing; your mind embroiled—
Your lady-friend—
Forget about her!

These endless rounds of conversation
Are just attachment and aversion—
It’s just more goat-shit, good for nothing at all.
At the time it seems marvellously entertaining,
But really, you’re just spreading around stories about other people’s mistakes.
Your audience seems to be listening politely,
But then they grow embarrassed for you.

Useless talk that just make you thirsty—
Forget about it!

Giving teachings on meditation texts
Without yourself having
Gained actual experience through practice,
Is like reciting a dance-manual out loud
And thinking that’s the same as actually dancing.

People may be listening to you with devotion,
But it just isn’t the real thing.

Sooner or later, when your own actions
Contradict the teachings, you’ll feel ashamed.


Just mouthing the words,
Giving dharma explanations that sound so eloquent—
Forget about it!

When you don’t have a text, you long for it;
Then when you’ve finally gotten it, you hardly look at it.

The number of pages seems few enough,
But it’s a bit hard to find time to copy them all.
Even if you copied down all the dharma texts on earth,
You wouldn’t be satisfied.

Copying down texts is a waste of time
(Unless you get paid)—
So forget about it!

Today, they’re happy as clams—
Tomorrow, they’re furious.
With all their black moods and white moods,
People are never satisfied.
Or even if they’re nice enough,
They may not come through when you really need them,
Disappointing you even more.

All this politeness, keeping up a
Courteous demeanor—
Forget about it!

Worldly and religious work
Is the province of gentlemen.
Patrul, old boy—that’s not for you.

Haven’t you noticed what always happens?
An old bull, once you’ve gone to the trouble of borrowing him for his services,
Seems to have absolutely no desire left in him at all—
(Except to go back to sleep).

Be like that—desireless.

Just sleep, eat, piss, shit.
There’s nothing else in life that has to be done.

Don’t get involved with other things:
They’re not the point.

Keep a low profile,
Sleep.

In the triple universe
When you’re lower than your company
You should take the low seat.

Should you happen to be the superior one,
Don’t get arrogant.

There’s no absolute need to have close friends;
You’re better off just keeping to yourself.

When you’re without any worldly or religious obligations,
Don’t keep on longing to acquire some!

If you let go of everything—
Everything, everything—
That’s the real point!

This advice was written by the practitioner Trime Lodro (Patrul Rinpoche) for his intimate friend Ahu Shri (Patrul Rinpoche), in order to give advice that is tailored exactly to his capacities.

This advice should be put into practice.

Even though you don’t know how to practice, just let go of everything—that’s what I really want to say. Even though you aren’t able to succeed in your dharma practice. don’t get angry.

May it be virtuous.

[Caz]

Wow Krishnamurti is full of it.

Well yes and no. He seems to have had some realizations, but as near as I can figure somewhere along the line he lost the thread of compassion and bodhicitta and tried to pursue truth in a very academic sort of way.

He once did an experiment where he took a rock from the garden, put it on a windowsill and tended to it each day, just to see what would happen. It wasn't very long before he started regarding the rock as first, special, and later, holy in some sense. When that started to happen he put the rock back where it came from, and was surprised to discover the level of attachment that had arisen.

So, the stories he tells are not without value. But they do tend to trap the reader in a net of - oh say, soulless academia.

It appears very doubtful he had any realizations at all. Having an intellectual understanding of something isnt a realization.

[gregkavarnos]

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others. You really shouldn't even judge yourself. You are encouraged to cultivate without hope of benefit or reward.

Hogwash, not only do we have the right to judge the capacity and motivation of those that are teaching us, we have to! It's a tantric thang! How else will we find a teacher to totally commit to?

[catmoon]

What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?

[gregkavarnos]

What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?

Since when has bodhicitta been synonymous with being an exploitable fool?

(5)In order for the words of honor of neither the Guru nor the disciple to degenerate,
there must be a mutual examination beforehand (to determine if each can) brave a
Guru-disciple relationship.
...
(7)A disciple with sense should not accept as his Guru someone who lacks compassion
or who is anger-some, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his
knowledge.
(8)A Guru should be stable in his actions, cultivated in his speech, wise, patient and
honest. He should neither conceal his shortcomings not pretend to possess qualities
he lacks. He should be an expert in the meanings of the tantra and in its ritual
procedures of medicine and turning back obstacles. Also he should have loving
compassion and a complete knowledge of the scriptures
...
(24)A disciple having great sense should obey the words of his Guru joyfully and with
enthusiasm. If you lack the knowledge or ability to do what he says, explain in polite
words why you cannot comply.

Fifty Stanzas Of Guru Devotion - Aryasura

[catmoon]

What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?

Since when has bodhicitta been synonymous with being an exploitable fool?

LOL Greg it seems I should have quoted the (non-Kavarnos) person I was responding to in my previous post. I was intending to support your drift, not undermine it. That's ok though, just use the Moon's gravity to slingshot you around and head back to Earth. I think you can then de-orbit successfully. Looking forward to seeing you on your return.

[gregkavarnos]

Awwww, but I like it out here!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o

[Adamantine]

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others

What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?

hmmmmnnn.... is this the missing puzzle piece? did i get it right?

[catmoon]

Yep you got it. Needless to sat thus presents a problem for me, cuz I'm pretty pro-Gelug and Atisha is someone I can't dismiss out of hand.

[Malcolm]

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others. You really shouldn't even judge yourself. You are encouraged to cultivate without hope of benefit or reward.

Hogwash, not only do we have the right to judge the capacity and motivation of those that are teaching us, we have to! It's a tantric thang! How else will we find a teacher to totally commit to?

The unexamined master is a māra for the disciple,
the unexamined disciple is the enemy of the master.
-- Tantra of Self-arisen Vidyā

[Beatzen]

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others. You really shouldn't even judge yourself. You are encouraged to cultivate without hope of benefit or reward.

Hogwash, not only do we have the right to judge the capacity and motivation of those that are teaching us, we have to! It's a tantric thang! How else will we find a teacher to totally commit to?

I'm not a tantric Buddhist, so I can't fully relate. In zen there is no guru devotion as there is in tantra. The goal of the teacher is to awaken the student's inner teacher so that they become self sufficient. No co-dependency.

[deff]

that's the goal in tantra too - it isn't a dependent relationship... the outer guru awakens one to the inner guru, but for this to occur guru devotion is very helpful

[Beatzen]

Atisha explicitly stated not to concern oneself with others

What, throw the bodhicitta out with the bathwater? Where is practice then?

hmmmmnnn.... is this the missing puzzle piece? did i get it right?

I don't see how the statements contradict. I think Atisha was talking about comparing your progress to others. That doesn't imply negating the cultivation of a pure intention to wake up for the sake of others.

As for judging a guru, I think you need to look at how their other students get along with their practice in order to accurately judge their merit. Like I've said before, take chogyam trungpa: a drunk and a fillanderer. But his students are very well trained.