"Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Taco_Rice
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"Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Taco_Rice »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:I have been on more than one occasion very near to renouncing Buddhism. I am really not much of a good fit.
This comes from another thread.

I've read the view in some Buddhist books that a person must have sufficiently good karma to encounter and practice Dharma, though over time I've become aware of various teachings that purport to be a gate that practically anyone can enter. These kinds of great gates, large nets, or great ships of teaching and approaching Dharma appeal to me, and I think this is why I've been drawn to Japanese Buddhism where I see streamlined, simplified practices like Zen sitting, Nembutsu, or Lotus daimoku. This idea that Buddhism is for everyone is appealing. So when someone says that they are "not a good fit" for Buddhism, this strikes me as wrong. Either they are looking at Buddhism as a kind of totem to represent them somehow or their view of Buddhism is more elitist, where only certain people can properly attain awakening.

What do you all here think about this statement above? Are some people simply "not a good fit" for Buddhism once they've encountered it or is it simply, (as I see it,) a matter of drawing the correct teachings and emphasis for one's own personal and cultural perspective from the Buddhist teaching?
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

I meant socially.

I guess thats why I keep coming back.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Boomerang »

I've met people who thought the four noble truths were unconvincing, because the ups and downs of life are what make it worth living. There are also people who think the idea of emptiness is complete nonsense.
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Nothing
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Nothing »

AN 6.86: Obstructions.
"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six?

"He is endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he lacks conviction, has no desire [to listen], and has dull discernment.

"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma.

"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is capable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even while listening to the true Dhamma. Which six?

"He is not endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, or a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he has conviction, has the desire [to listen], and is discerning.

"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is capable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even while listening to the true Dhamma."
SeeLion
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by SeeLion »

There is a teacher who likes to talk about karma of the present moment.

Doesn't matter what your past karma is, it matters what you do of it right now. And there is always a step on the path that one can do right now.

But we need to acknowledge that Buddha has taught in many ways for many different people. So maybe the issue is simply finding the right guide on the path.
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Herbie »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:I have been on more than one occasion very near to renouncing Buddhism. I am really not much of a good fit.
...

What do you all here think about this statement above?
it is a matter of (really) knowing better concomitant with lack of self reliance. it is a pitty although ubiquitous.
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Astus
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Astus »

Buddhism is certainly not for everyone, otherwise everyone would be a Buddhist. But we see right in the story of the Buddha's enlightenment that only a few people can understand it.

"Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached.
This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion.
What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow —
those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see."

(Ayacana Sutta)

As for Zen:

"Out of thousands and thousands of Dharma students in the Dhyana School, only three or five attain the fruit."
(Huangbo: "The Chung-Ling Record", tr Lok To)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Nothing »

An 10.95:
.....the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances.
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by undefineable »

Does this mean you have to lose all trace of each hindrance in order to meditate in a way that doesn't send you to hell or whatever?
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by seeker242 »

undefineable wrote:Does this mean you have to lose all trace of each hindrance in order to meditate in a way that doesn't send you to hell or whatever?
I don't think so because even devas born in higher realms still have hindrances. And the deva realms are the opposite direction of hell realms. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Saoshun »

You cannot leave buddhism unless you can leave your mind.
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Taco_Rice »

Saoshun wrote:You cannot leave buddhism unless you can leave your mind.
Done. Next step?
Astus wrote:Buddhism is certainly not for everyone, otherwise everyone would be a Buddhist. But we see right in the story of the Buddha's enlightenment that only a few people can understand it.

"Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached.
This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion.
What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow —
those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see."

(Ayacana Sutta)

As for Zen:

"Out of thousands and thousands of Dharma students in the Dhyana School, only three or five attain the fruit."
(Huangbo: "The Chung-Ling Record", tr Lok To)
Isn’t this where hongaku comes into play? I’ve read that zazen itself is considered to be manifesting one’s enlightenment for the duration of one’s sitting.

Image
Nothing wrote:An 10.95:
.....the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances.
From what’s quoted here, I take this “Tathagata don’t care” statement more as rhetoric to emphasize the importance of overcoming those five hindrances. Abandoning the five hindrances—to a degree, at least—could just as well lead one to waypoint of worldly success as to the Ultimate Goal far beyond it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_(Buddhist)
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Saoshun »

"done. what next?" - is the mind, that's delusional.
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Taco_Rice »

Saoshun wrote:"done. what next?" - is the mind, that's delusional.
I don't mind. If I don't mind then we don't mind, because you aren't minded. When you aren't minded you can't mind your business because there's no business to mind, and no mind to mind it—neither "mine" nor "yours" nor any other nor any "other." Thus, so long as your are mindful, you shouldn't mind because, minding mind, "you" (by which I mean YOU,) don't mind.

Image
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
Saoshun
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Saoshun »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Saoshun wrote:"done. what next?" - is the mind, that's delusional.
I don't mind. If I don't mind then we don't mind, because you aren't minded. When you aren't minded you can't mind your business because there's no business to mind, and no mind to mind it—neither "mine" nor "yours" nor any other nor any "other." Thus, so long as your are mindful, you shouldn't mind because, minding mind, "you" (by which I mean YOU,) don't mind.

Image

Another lip service zen but even lower then that because you have no idea what you are speaking of.
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by Taco_Rice »

Saoshun wrote:Another lip service zen but even lower then that because you have no idea what you are speaking of.
I call it "humor," Saoshun. Anyway..
When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes.
— Takuan Sōhō, the Unfettered Mind
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by muni »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:I have been on more than one occasion very near to renouncing Buddhism. I am really not much of a good fit.
This comes from another thread.

I've read the view in some Buddhist books that a person must have sufficiently good karma to encounter and practice Dharma, though over time I've become aware of various teachings that purport to be a gate that practically anyone can enter. These kinds of great gates, large nets, or great ships of teaching and approaching Dharma appeal to me, and I think this is why I've been drawn to Japanese Buddhism where I see streamlined, simplified practices like Zen sitting, Nembutsu, or Lotus daimoku. This idea that Buddhism is for everyone is appealing. So when someone says that they are "not a good fit" for Buddhism, this strikes me as wrong. Either they are looking at Buddhism as a kind of totem to represent them somehow or their view of Buddhism is more elitist, where only certain people can properly attain awakening.

What do you all here think about this statement above? Are some people simply "not a good fit" for Buddhism once they've encountered it or is it simply, (as I see it,) a matter of drawing the correct teachings and emphasis for one's own personal and cultural perspective from the Buddhist teaching?
There is something for all, is been said. The variety of ways, not easy to call it buddhism, when we talk about the methods. It is a very vast variety. At least by enlightened ones, all is for liberation of our confusion. We have for example one question, one sentence, little stories, termas, koans, zazen, sutras, tantras, shastras, mantras, rituals, general teachings ( Four Nobles).........., all to help us to recognize how we /all is, to be freed from suffering. I feel no need for the label buddhism in a way of putting it in a box, and all other in another box. Since one sentence or one question leading to recognition of Nature, in which box can this be placed? In which box Nature can be placed?
Open mind, empty cup ready to listen/receive blessing guidance.
Then there are in buddhism the Four Seals of Dharma. But these are only so when methods had their use.

Brain damage and some other unfortunate conditions can be a problem, I heard saying. As far as I remember it was HH Dalai Lama who was asked about and said so. Going through bad karma as well, then it is not so easy, it goes not so "swiftly", or must be used as tool.

Practice for all. :heart:
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by DGA »

Taco_Rice wrote: Are some people simply "not a good fit" for Buddhism once they've encountered it or is it simply, (as I see it,) a matter of drawing the correct teachings and emphasis for one's own personal and cultural perspective from the Buddhist teaching?
I agree with you on this point.
Myoho-Nameless wrote:I meant socially.

I guess thats why I keep coming back.
This gets complicated, and not only for people who have social anxiety disorders or other issues that can make everyday interactions with people a challenge. It's possible that someone may be attempting to practice in a "gate" that is inappropriate to that person's needs. I don't really find one-practice-fits-all solutions to be plausible at all. It may also be that the person who is having a hard time fitting in just has more learning to do. This was my own experience; I had to get over myself to a certain extent before I could really integrate myself with a Dharma center. There are other possibilities. This is worthwhile reading:

http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... iberation/
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Re: "Right" for Buddhism, or need the right Gate?

Post by sillyrabbit »

Taco_Rice wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:I have been on more than one occasion very near to renouncing Buddhism. I am really not much of a good fit.
This comes from another thread.

I've read the view in some Buddhist books that a person must have sufficiently good karma to encounter and practice Dharma, though over time I've become aware of various teachings that purport to be a gate that practically anyone can enter.
I don't see how these two statements contradict each other. There are are gates that practically anyone can enter, but whether one will enter the gate or not is the result of one's karmic fruition.

This is why I encourage non-Buddhists in the faith they practice if they don't want to join the Sangha in this life. I'm hoping they get a better chance either later in this life or the next. Maybe someone wished that for me once upon a time...

DGA wrote:This gets complicated, and not only for people who have social anxiety disorders or other issues that can make everyday interactions with people a challenge. It's possible that someone may be attempting to practice in a "gate" that is inappropriate to that person's needs. I don't really find one-practice-fits-all solutions to be plausible at all.
I find social interaction draining, so I'm not a good fit for types of practices that require a lot of group participation. I've tried before, and I just end up never going back, since the last thing I wanted to do after the workweek was to be apart of yet another crowd. It does no good if I never go. So, Pureland practice suits me for this reason. Good thing the Tathagata provides us with so many different dharma doors suiting so many different dispositions.
Namo Amitabha Buddha
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