how can buddhist help real suffering?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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tomschwarz
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how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

dear friends from beginningless time, my stomach hurts )))))))))) there are three types of suffering: suffering of suffering (birth, old age, sickness and death) suffering of change and suffering of conditioned existence (fundamental ignorance). The third noble truth is supposed to cause the cessation of all suffering. but does it work? how does it work/ not work for you?

the only thing that works for me is that by having less sense of self (call it independent self) I have less to protect against sickness, pain, change, etc.... Other perspectives?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
muni
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by muni »

Whether there is ‘meditation/equipoise’ or not, whether there is less suffering or not.
Therefore what more we can wish each other than the opportunity to practice, I don't know.

:anjali:
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daverupa
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by daverupa »

tomschwarz wrote:The third noble truth is supposed to cause the cessation of all suffering.
Not quite; that truth is simply that there can be a cessation of suffering, but the cause of that is the fourth truth - the integrous eightfold Path.

Now, what's this about stomach pain? The cessation of suffering is not the cessation of unpleasant feeling...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

very interesting. we need to explore this. not what muni said, that is clear. and daverupa of course you are right about the 3rd and 4th noble truths. my mistake.

but this idea that ending suffering is not the end of unpleasant feeling.... that is definitely a new idea for me, so let's discuss it. now, if suffering ends, all three types end. one of those is the suffering of suffering which includes sickness.

also there are the 10 links of dependent origination. and if we reversed them wouldn't feeling and sense organs also cease? so let's paint a picture of a practitioner having reached buddha hood and having an unpleasant feeling. are we simply talking about compassion and empathy for those caught up in cyclic existence?

because my stomach hurts ))) better now but still hurts and I am weak --stomach flu.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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seeker242
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by seeker242 »

tomschwarz wrote:very interesting. we need to explore this. not what muni said, that is clear. and daverupa of course you are right about the 3rd and 4th noble truths. my mistake.

but this idea that ending suffering is not the end of unpleasant feeling.... that is definitely a new idea for me, so let's discuss it. now, if suffering ends, all three types end. one of those is the suffering of suffering which includes sickness.

so let's paint a picture of a practitioner having reached buddha hood and having an unpleasant feeling. are we simply talking about compassion and empathy for those caught up in cyclic existence?

because my stomach hurts ))) better now but still hurts and I am weak --stomach flu.
The Pali Canon addresses this in the Sallatha Sutta. It's well worth a good read. :) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?"

...

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."

The discerning person, learned,
doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain:
This is the difference in skillfulness
between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill.

For a learned person
who has fathomed the Dhamma,
clearly seeing this world & the next,
desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His acceptance
& rejection are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.

Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.
But, this does not mean an enlightened one does not feel pain if his leg is broken. Electrical signals will still be sent from nerve endings to the brain regardless if the person is ignorant or enlightened.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

thank you dear seeker242.
Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it.
is this applicable to only enlightened humans or to living beings in the buddha realm also? in other words is there physical pain in the buddha realm?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

should i be saying buddha field in the place of buddha realm?

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Buddha_field

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

The term "buddhas" plural contradicts the absolute truth..... but I digress. The existance of physical pain for buddha (s) in the buddha field (s) or realm (s) that is the question.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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daverupa
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by daverupa »

MN 53 wrote:"Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Ananda responded, "As you say, lord."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The way I've heard it put is that physical sensations become like gauges that you can read and ignore--or not.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

)))) very clear. impressive sutra reference. so we buddhists have the wish to end suffering for all sentient beings. and what i am learning here is that one perspective for ending physical pain is disjoining of the physical (along with sense consciousness) from the more subtle mind. and to achieve that disjunction we must discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from feelings. is this correct?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

tomschwarz wrote:...what i am learning here is that one perspective for ending physical pain is disjoining of the physical (along with sense consciousness) from the more subtle mind. and to achieve that disjunction we must discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from feelings. is this correct?
I'm not sure. But it sounds like if you tried that you could end up with severe psychological problems instead of the 4th Noble Truth. Best to just practice and see what happens.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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daverupa
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by daverupa »

tomschwarz wrote:and to achieve that disjunction we must discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from feelings. is this correct?
SN 22.57 wrote:“And what, bhikkhus, is feeling? There are these six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye-contact… feeling born of mind-contact. This is called feeling. With the arising of contact there is the arising of feeling. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling; that is, right view … right concentration.

“The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on feeling: this is the gratification in feeling. That feeling is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this is the danger in feeling. The removal and abandonment of desire and lust for feeling: this is the escape from feeling.

“Whatever ascetics and brahmins, having thus directly known feeling, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation, having thus directly known the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of feeling, are practising for the purpose of revulsion towards feeling, for its fading away and cessation, they are practising well. Those who are practising well have gained a foothold in this Dhamma and Discipline.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

So clear good answer, and great Web site. Thank you so much dear daverupa. To summarise, the way Buddhism helps real suffering is:
- 3rd noble truth - no independent self, reversing the 12 links of dependent origination
- That is achieved by the 4th noble truth, the eight-fold path
- The eight-fold path, and greater 4th noble truth, is then the cause for the end of suffering. But the only "gotcha" is that of the two arrows of suffering we will still "feel" the first physical one. But then by following the eight-fold path we achieve the cessation of feeling, perception, consciousness, and so on.

so in terms of language to support this, perhaps we have to have two words for feeling. One is the feeling we successfully escape from and the other is the feeling of physical pain which will always remain. Yes? And also is there the arrow of physical pain and feeling in a buddha field?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

Of course I am dwelling on one small fraction of human suffering, physical pain. In my experience buddhism does a fantastic job of providing a type of immunity against or nullifying effect on mental suffering (anxiety, longing, sadness, anger, jealousy, violence associated with pride, fear and struggle/stress associated with defending self, opening up the possibility of unconditional love and friendliness, and so on)
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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daverupa
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by daverupa »

tomschwarz wrote:Of course I am dwelling on one small fraction of human suffering, physical pain. In my experience buddhism does a fantastic job of providing a type of immunity against or nullifying effect on mental suffering (anxiety, longing, sadness, anger, jealousy, violence associated with pride, fear and struggle/stress associated with defending self, opening up the possibility of unconditional love and friendliness, and so on)
I deal with some clever gut pains, m'self, and so I want to make sure you feel you've got a practice to help.

On one hand, the practice will remove the mental anguish of physical pain. This baseline physical pain will be a taint to avoid by enduring, accomplished in a number of ways but with observation of impermanence as the crux of it. On the other, there is a signless meditation that is the only way to avoid pain altogether (well, there's sleep and heavy pain-killer drugs, but these states are relatively heedless ones).

So, the body sucks, and will be a painful lump for a time, and medicine is to be used alongside overall care while dealing with its pains so that you can make the appropriate mental effort.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

daverupa from beginningless time, thank you for your kind heart feelings. i agree with you on all accounts. impermanence, signlessness are as central in mental stability as the spinal column is for the human body. and i would add that the sutra about feeling being an aspect of obscuration/ fundamental ignorance/ and actually hindering true selfless compassion, gives me a nice nudge in the direction of buddha dharma. thank you again.

so now let's please return to the squeaky wheel, the 2 questions that for my limited dharma experience remain unanswered.
(regarding buddha's back hurting versus realisation of the true escape from all feeling)

so in terms of language to support this, perhaps we have to have two words for feeling. One is the feeling we successfully escape from and the other is the feeling of physical pain which will always remain. Yes? And also is there the arrow of physical pain and feeling in a buddha field?
maybe now I see the answer to the first question. would you agree that in the case of buddha's back hurting, he is having a "feeling" but it is purely physical and his mind has no feelings, e.g. of desire or aversion, but he reacts to his back pain for pragmatic reasons, e.g. maintaining his health and mobility?

but second question is unanswered. is there physical pain in a buddha field? my gut is no way and every way )))). no way because a buddha field should be pure emptiness without defilement/obscuration/independent self. and a being in a buddha field feels physical pain in every way because the buddha dharma (and perhaps living beings in a buddha field) permeates all things without discrimination.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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daverupa
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by daverupa »

tomschwarz wrote: is there physical pain in a buddha field?
You'll have to have others answer you; it's not a well-put question, from my point of view, because it assumes too much in the asking; good luck to you.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by Kaccāni »

What is the difference between real and irreal suffering?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
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tomschwarz
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Re: how can buddhist help real suffering?

Post by tomschwarz »

))))) that is a good one kaccani from beginningless time. what is the difference between psychosomatic pain and real pain? )))))))) buddhism really ))))) blossoms here. i think that his holiness the dalai lama would point to kleshas/ conflicting mental states, the three poisons and so on as the area where we create suffering. but if we create it why is it unreal?

About unreal suffering Web MD says
Psychosomatic pain, also known as psychogenic pain, is a pain disorder associated with psychological factors. Some types of mental or emotional problems can cause, increase or prolong pain. A person with a psychogenic pain disorder will complain of pain that does not match his or her symptoms.
great addition to the thread, now we come full circle and start causing suffering again. but let us (not) loose ourselves ))), i think that the question how can buddhism/ a buddhist help "real" suffering was answered, no? but i will suggest that from my perspective, so long as samsara exists there will be pain in the universe (s )
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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