history of samsara on earth

[tomschwarz]

hello dear friends from beginningless time. you have my full, heart-level support in all your efforts. may you be successful in planting the seeds for lasting happiness and concord.

here is a semi-interesting question ))))))), we talked about the origins of karma (http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=18669) excellent comments there, thank you! ...now let's talk about the related topic of the history of samsara on earth... let's focus on the animal realm in particular -- but all realms of suffering are included in this topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... ry_of_life question: did samsara on earth begin 570 million years ago?

the first animal life on earth was probably a sponge and probably 570 million years ago. was that the beginning of suffering on earth? or were the microbes (single cell life 3.6 billion years ago) and simple multi-cell organisms (1 billion years ago) opening the doors of samasara for animal life on planet earth? or is the evolution of animal life on earth irrelevant because the hell realm, hungry ghost realm, anti-god realm and god realm have been here on planet earth since its initial formation 4 billion years ago?

his holiness the dalai lama wrote in "the four noble truths, the truth of suffering" 1996, pg 83:

At what point does karma play a casual role in producing sentient beings and the natural environment in which they live? Perhaps we can say that there is a natural process in the world, and at a certain point when its evolution has reached a stage where it can affect the experiences of beings - giving rise to either painful experiences of suffering or joyful experiences of happiness - that is the point where karma enters the picture.

i will put forward my answer from the start. openeing my mind/heart to disernment/snang-ba mtha'-yas/amitabha, i would say that samsara is more subtle, a feeling. it is the unrequited desire, the unstable and unrealistic highs of satiation, then on a more subtle level it is the heart ache that comes with change juxtaposed with the idea of self. so i say that samsara started on earth with life on earth which started 3.6 billion years ago. buddhists believe that plants don't have feelings and early microbes were much like plants. but we are not talking about feelings we are talking about samsara and i feel in my heart that there are clear signs on samsara in plant life, no question. look in 1 sq foot of your lawn how each plant tries to take the sun from the next plant, tries to extend its roots and take the nourishment from other plants, this is a struggle and with it comes suffering.

[Simon E.]

Samsara isn't a ' thing ' with a history or timeline, anymore than it's a place.

Samsara is Wrong View.

[tomschwarz]

dearest Simon e. can't a wrong view arise and subside? if samsara can end then surely it can start. .. no?

[Ayu]

Well, , where is the start in a circle?

I like this book very much: http://www.tsongkang.de/product_info.ph ... tehen.html
One need to know about this circle of dependent origination.

[Paul]

if samsara can end then surely it can start. .. no?

Samsara is beginningless. It has no start.

[tomschwarz]

thank you dear ayu for the book reference. I will read it!

dearest Paul samsara has no start for a given planet? or do you think it is an abstract idea that exists with or without planets and beings? how could we have samsara on earth without life?

ayu, you know the dedication after seated practice, to the liberation of all sentient beings from cyclical existence? do you believe that this is possible?

if it is, and time has no beginning, then it has occurred. and so samsara has ended and begun an infinite number of times just like you have been my mother, father, brother, daughter and so on.

[Ayu]

...
ayu, you know the dedication after seated practice, to the liberation of all sentient beings from cyclical existence? do you believe that this is possible?

if it is, and time has no beginning, then it has occurred. and so samsara has ended and begun an infinite number of times just like you have been my mother, father, brother, daughter and so on.

Yes, I think both might be possible.
Personally I'm not sure about the term "all". I cannot imagine, how it ends. But nevertheless, there are countless beings who already reached liberation and there are countless to come to reach it in future. I think so. This is my inspiration.

[tomschwarz]

one clear point, and theme in buddhism is that there is no magic. it is all quite logical. so as a groundwork for our wisdom practice, we must accept that the path is two-way, that is logical. if we do accept that, then we can see the arising of the illusion of self/independence/suffering/samsara (2nd noble truth), and the cessation of that illusion (3rd noble truth). similarly, we can see the cessation of suffering, the realization of emptiness (3rd noble truth) followed by the repetition of the very same mistaken illusions that then create suffering (2nd noble truth).

as we learned from vimalakirti nirdesa sutra "Enlightenment is all-pervasive" and equally distributed http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F ... akirti.htm. so there "you" are one day in a buddha field which is a superset of a suffering person's "individual consciousness" and you get taken in by it, you go the wrong way on the path which is towards the illusion of independence and substantial self, and that is how samsara begins for 1 sentient being. anyone disagree?

[Paul]

dearest Paul samsara has no start for a given planet?

In the Abhidharmakosha it explains that the variety of the world arises from karma. That is to say the universe and what's in it comes about due to the karmic tendencies of the beings from the previous universe. So karma, and therefore confusion, is actually prior to a world, not after.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

dearest Simon e. can't a wrong view arise and subside? if samsara can end then surely it can start. .. no?

[Loren]

The thing I've heard before is that Chenrezig is actually a Buddha and if this is so that means he fulfilled his vow to assist every sentient being in samsara. I don't know--just practice.

[tomschwarz]

dear Paul karma fundamental ignorance kleshas and so on create the illusion of duality yes, that is true. and also true that without that illusion there remains only emptiness which is characterized by the absence of origination and cessation.

but

we cannot say that the natural processes of cause and effect are a product of karma

his holiness the dalai Lama "the four noble truths" 1997.

I agree with your reference to the abhidharma. do you have a link to it and a quote? I suspect that there is a subtlety here that we are missing. just because variety aka duality arises from karma does not mean that karma create the earth itself. karma creates the designation earth.

[tomschwarz]

thank you kind tashi for the beautiful picture. does it show that the path is two way? in the circle around the snake bird and pig, when the buddha enters the dark again, can that be considered as a result of the arising of fundamental ignorance?