Reaching the unconscious mind

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Wayfarer »

Simon E wrote:But what you have just described does not conform AT ALL with the psychoanalytic model of the unconscious.
And it is quite clear that it is that model which preoccupies the OP.
The OP doesn't even mention the word 'psychoanlytic'. Who brought that to the table? Why, that would be you - probably for reasons which are....well, I won't labour the point.

But anyway, this being the Internet age, I googled it (of course) and (as I thought) instantly found a journal article which claims to provide ample empirical evidence for the existence of unconscious processes:

The Scientific Status of Unconscious Processes: Is Freud Really Dead? Drew Westen

Abstract:
At regular intervals for over half a century, critiques of Freud and psychoanalysis have emerged in the popular media and in intellectual circles, usually declaring that Freud has died some new and agonizing death, and that the enterprise he created should be buried along with him like the artifacts in the tomb of an Egyptian king. Although the critiques take many forms, a central claim has long been that unconscious processes, like other psychoanalytic constructs, lack any basis in scientific research. In recent years, however, a large body of experimental research has emerged in a number of independent literatures. This work documents the most fundamental tenet of psychoanalysis—that much of mental life is unconscious, including cognitive, affective, and motivational processes. This body of research suggests some important revisions in the psychoanalytic understanding of unconscious processes, but it also points to the conclusion that, based on controlled scientific investigations alone (that is, without even considering clinical data), the repeated broadside attacks on psychoanalysis are no longer tenable.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

Well good luck with integrating that with Dharma practice.

But I am realistic enough to know that the need to believe in an unconscious is not going to disappear from the conceptual vocabulary of most moderns overnight ...
It was drummed into the collective mindset for a century..
Although it has almost entirely disappeared from the teaching and research of all psychology departments and the training of most psychotherapists.
And is now found almost exclusively in the musings of artists and journalists.
But if anyone has no more urgent need but to find the cure for invented problems then good luck to them I say.
Who am I to spoil their party ?
Last edited by Simon E. on Mon May 19, 2014 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Rick »

There is little consensus in the scientific community on the nature of the unconscious mind. Many nontrivially different theories exist and Freud's model, though strongly critiqued, stll has clout in some circles.

One thing everyone seems to agree on is that some mental processes are not accessible to the conscious mind. These processes are what I'm talking about. How does one reach them, bring them into the light?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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Its not necessary.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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The existence of unconscious processes is not the same thing as the unconscious mind. And, it is questionable whether awakening requires it to be unveiled, it just depends as I have said before. Personally, I have spent years working with dreams and processes of all kinds, few ppl are interested and that is fine ... the issue is the processes can't rise above themselves. They exist in a particular reality only. R, do you think they have to be unveiled?

it's a good thing to have the concept of the unconscious disappear from science, it doesn't belong there. It's an art in the realm of literature, music and painting where it expresses itself well. It's also an art to discover the forces which animate us.... I have spoken about looking for clues to bring them into the light, but do you think this is necessary? It's not science and it's tricky when all we have is interpretation when there is still the veil.
Last edited by Lindama on Mon May 19, 2014 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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Lindama wrote:The existence of unconscious processes is not the same thing as the unconscious mind. And, it is questionable whether awakening requires it to be unveiled, it just depends as I have said before. Personally, I have spent years working with dreams and processes of all kinds, few ppl are interested and that is fine ... the issue is the processes can't rise above the issues. They exist in a particular reality only.

it's a good thing to have the concept of the unconscious disappear from science, it doesn't belong there. It's an art in the realm of literature, music and painting where it expresses itself well. It's also an art to discover the forces which animate us.... I have spoken about looking for clues to bring them into the light, but do you think this is necessary? It's not science and it's tricky when all we have is interpretation when there is still the veil.
There are not two realities.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Lindama »

Agreed Simon, but we're already huddled only on one side...
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

Speak for yourself.
I think you are not seeing the real implications of your position.
Which is to posit non -duality by means of a duality.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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rachmiel wrote: One thing everyone seems to agree on is that some mental processes are not accessible to the conscious mind. These processes are what I'm talking about. How does one reach them, bring them into the light?
Isn't that one of the reasons why in Zen sesshins, you sit in one spot for 10 days barely moving and being silently aware of everything in the body~mind? Isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Outside strictly Buddhist circles, it has long been known that yogis have uncanny abilities to control autonomic procesesses, like slowing their respiration and heartbeat and so on. There was an experiment with a yogi who was sealed in air-tight containers for a long period of time with electrodes attached to measure his metabolic activity. It was thought that he had died, but he regained consciousness at the end and was fine. (This is recounted in Irreducible Mind ed. Kelly and Kelly. There are many such accounts around. One concerned the charming and charismatic 'Swami Rama' who was brought to America and astounded scientists with his ability to control his metabolic functions. He was very popular in the 70's and 80's although his reputation suffered when lawsuits were brought against him for sexual harrasement. Check the entry in Wikipedia if you're interested.)

You can argue that a lot of Tibetan iconography is archetypal in nature, i.e. charting various regions of consciousness. The mind-only schools say there is nothing else to chart.

So I think this sense of 'bringing the unconscious to consciousness' is integral to the whole process of meditative awareness, and always has been. That's what it's about. But it is not a trivial undertaking, it is a serious quest, in the true sense.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Lindama »

Simon E. wrote:Speak for yourself.
I think you are not seeing the real implications of your position.
Which is to posit non -duality by means of a duality.
The snake must have eaten its tale, I can't follow how non-duality can be posited. I was talking about an ego seeing through it's own issues, it can't ... there are two relative realities, the egoic and the wider view. Along the lines of asking, how does a fish discover water. I wasn't referring to anything fancy. I can agree to the one reality. I better stop then.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by reddust »

I don't remember the unconscious mind per Western views in my Buddhist studies. I do remember (don't have the citations but I can look em up) that most of the stuff the goes on in our mind we aren't aware of, you know habits and stuff like that. My vipassana meditation is to bring correct awareness to what has always been going on in my mind that I am not aware of and let it go because it's all empty like a bubble...

Does that sound right? It's been so long ago maybe I should look this stuff up again. EDIT...

Western view calls our daily awareness "conscious mind" Buddhist view call this paritta citta and it's just a small part of what's going on. There is a wall between paritta citta and what we aren't aware of. The Buddhist call the anusaya kilesa, sleeping volcanoes or dormant seeds which are beyond our every day awareness just waiting to sprout or blow up. OMG there is tons of data on this...per my vipassana teachings you sensation is the bridge over the wall... :tongue:

Gosh I've forgotten so much :tongue:
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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I think that's pretty right, but we all know that 'what comes up', and the letting go of it, can be a lot easier said than done.

As part of the process of working through stuff, something previously hidden to conscious awareness might sometimes gradually (or suddenly) be remembered or become apparent. (Used to be referred to as 'elephants' in the early [non-Buddhist] awareness-training classes I did. ) Often that can be an extremely emotional experience - 'cathartic'.

'Catharsis: the process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.'
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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Wayfarer wrote:
'Catharsis: the process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.'
Yes there is release of emotions, but lots of other things come up when the mind settles and you can see sensations without aversion and craving. A good sit, lots of bliss and ease would put me on edge because I knew the next sitting session would be full of horrible pain or boredom. I was able to see clearly how I would run away from what hurt me and cling to what was pleasant. Also all sorts of visions and feelings came up. It was like sitting through a storm and trying not to be the leaf in the wind. Throughout this early work I thought a lot about cleaning out old closets. During this time my night terrors and panic attacks stopped. Its not that I found anything special. I didn't find anything at all except the ability to sit very still and let what ever comes up go away. There is a lot of stuff going on in the mind, whole worlds and universes are in there. Letting that go was really difficult, I wanted to explore but I still had a lot of closets to clean out.

Glossary per my Theravada Vipassana studies: anusaya. The unconscious mind; latent, underlying conditioning; dormant mental impurity (also anusaya-kilesa).
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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rachmiel wrote: So it seems to me that true radical transformation = liberation can only occur if the unconscious mind is also liberated, clear, still.

Yet the activities of the unconscious mind are, by definition, unavailable, like objects on the dark side of the moon.

My question: Does meditation "heal" the unconscious mind?
... the OP, the answer is no. For good observations made in this thread by many. Meditative awareness does not have this as a goal as far as discovery or healing. Ofc, things come up and we see them clearly or they present another prob for us... then, it is skillful means as to how we deal with this. Teachers can help, so can meditation for finding some balance, perspective, equanimity. I, personally, no longer believe in letting go. I am a complete failure. But, I have seen that it can let go of me.... I no longer think that I am in control. BTW, that is not something to tell beginners, they must come to their own on that. Skillful means is none other than being present to what is called for, for each being.

I've done my share of catharsis back in the day, and while I'd swear on a sutra that it helped, and it did, I now view it as necessary to quell my ego pain body, not necessarily more. I wouldn't discourage it, but it does come to an end. I credit the work with loosening my boundaries and with relaxing my rigidity... it was a beginning. It was also diving back into the pain body and there was an element of re-traumatization which I wouldn't enter again. Everything must be seen in it's time and place to be appreciated.
bringing the unconscious to consciousness' is integral to the whole process of meditative awareness
That is not integral to zen. Whatever arises, arises. There is no intent. I no longer believe that I have the power to let go of anything. Things let go of me. If practice is strong, I may turn the TV to another channel. Transformation is the best outcome, but it's out of our hands. That does not particularly relate to awakening, but to healing the psyche.

and this:

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”
― Dōgen
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melon flowers bloomed.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Derek »

rachmiel wrote:How does one reach them, bring them into the light?
Rachmiel, I don't know your background, so I can't give instructions specific to you. But in general, you start by establishing a concentration practice. Once that's good and strong, you switch to a watching practice. At first, you'll only see things you already know about. But gradually, your awareness will deepen, and things you didn't know about before will become visible to you. What was previously unconscious becomes conscious.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by LastLegend »

Lindama wrote:
That is not integral to zen. Whatever arises, arises. There is no intent. I no longer believe that I have the power to let go of anything. Things let go of me. If practice is strong, I may turn the TV to another channel. Transformation is the best outcome, but it's out of our hands. That does not particularly relate to awakening, but to healing the psyche.

and this:

“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.”
― Dōgen

I feel the same way too. It's more trapping when there is something to be achieved, created, or established. I don't have it all figured out but it helps a great deal knowing problems we have in life are created in mind. Thus, not creating or establishing anything in mind helps. As far as trying to work the mind, it does not work for me now. I find it more confusing when keep thinking and trying to figure out the mind. This is just more conceptual creation.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

Lindama wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Speak for yourself.
I think you are not seeing the real implications of your position.
Which is to posit non -duality by means of a duality.
The snake must have eaten its tale, I can't follow how non-duality can be posited. I was talking about an ego seeing through it's own issues, it can't ... there are two relative realities, the egoic and the wider view. Along the lines of asking, how does a fish discover water. I wasn't referring to anything fancy. I can agree to the one reality. I better stop then.

I was referring to your use of the science/art split in a way that implied that the former addressed one universe and the latter another.
There is a widespread tendency among western Dharma students to assume that science is somehow more the product of samsara than is art.
Which leads eventually to weirder and weirder views...chops sticks are less samsaric than knives and forks. Tofu is less samsaric than a burger. Smallpox is less samsaric than vaccination.
Jeff Koonz is less samsaric than Christian Barnard..
But non-duality is radical. It is serious. It means it.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Simon E.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

Derek wrote:
rachmiel wrote:How does one reach them, bring them into the light?
Rachmiel, I don't know your background, so I can't give instructions specific to you. But in general, you start by establishing a concentration practice. Once that's good and strong, you switch to a watching practice. At first, you'll only see things you already know about. But gradually, your awareness will deepen, and things you didn't know about before will become visible to you. What was previously unconscious becomes conscious.
Which might be good advice but in no way needs the existence of a thing or functioning called 'The Unconscious '.
Merely that there are arising phenomena the existence of which we are not conscious of.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

Post by Simon E. »

rachmiel wrote:If, as one is wont to hear, the unconscious mind is vastly "larger" than the conscious mind ... healing the conscious mind might well leave the unconscious mind still in chaos, bound, suffering.

So it seems to me that true radical transformation = liberation can only occur if the unconscious mind is also liberated, clear, still.

Yet the activities of the unconscious mind are, by definition, unavailable, like objects on the dark side of the moon.

My question: Does meditation "heal" the unconscious mind?
Here is the OP which clearly ( no doubt influenced by psychoanalytic theory ) sees the ' unconscious mind' as an ENTITY with a fixed function.
Which is a collective and culturally driven strawman which has had a distorting effect on the western view of Dharma for 60 years.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Reaching the unconscious mind

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But that could be an unconscious bias on your part :smile:.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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