Pure lands & non-duality

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Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:36 pm

Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:09 pm

garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?



Not sure where you get your definitions..but your basic question about pure lands is answered by the trikaya notion, afaik.

Probably a good idea to get an actual teacher's opinion for questions like that as well.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby PorkChop » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:29 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?



Not sure where you get your definitions..but your basic question about pure lands is answered by the trikaya notion, afaik.

Probably a good idea to get an actual teacher's opinion for questions like that as well.


Yeah having a hard time parsing this question. It sounds like it might be one of the possible pitfalls of Mind Only Pure Land: if one thinks the Pure Land is only in one's head and not a place one can experience, then one is incorrectly creating a duality between Mind and object. I can try to source that quote later if anyone wants to see a better version.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby Ethan » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:41 pm

garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?


When non-duality is present as experience, what is the difference between looking here or there?
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby Aemilius » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:01 am

garudha wrote: In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.



Often in buddhism it is said that the subject and object have no indepedent existence and hence they are nondual.
There is a classic question about the inseparability of blue and the awareness of blue, i.e that there is no blue without someone seeing it. "Blue" would be nonsensical without the awareness of blue. This dilemma exists in Yogachara and Madhyamaka buddhism, but it also exists in european philosophy. You must not forget that!
Bertrand Russel writes at length about the perception of a table, about the impossibility of knowing a "real table", which not dependent on our perception of it, which exists "before" our perception of it.
This is one of the themes in european philosophy. You can find the same question in Madhyamaka and Yogachara philosophy, although the discussion is in slightly different terms.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby dude » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:05 am

"There are not two lands, pure and impure.
The difference is in the people's minds."

- Vimalakirti Sutra
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My pure land is not destroyed,

yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,

with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings

filling it everywhere.

These living beings with their various offenses,

through causes arising from their evil actions,

spend asamkhya kalpas

without hearing the name of the three treasures.

- Lotus Sutra
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby KeithBC » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:53 pm

garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?

Your definition of dualism is unnecessarily restrictive, and that may be confusing the issue. All discoursive thought is dualistic, not just thoughts about god or consciousness.

If I say, "This sandwich is good", I am creating dualisms re: this sandwich vs. other sandwiches; this sandwich vs. all things that are not sandwiches; good sandwiches vs. bad or mediochre sandwiches; and anything good vs. anything that is not good.

It is this inherently dualistic mode of thought that non-dualism seeks to transcend. Yes, non-duality is attainable. It is another word for enlightenment.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:52 pm

dude wrote:...Lotus Sutra


Thank you for providing an on-topic reply.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby dude » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:45 pm

I think you're totally wrong, Keith.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby greentara » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:17 am

keithbc, 'The great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences' so yes, Keith I do agree with you and find your comment spot on!
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:31 pm

KeithBC wrote:
garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?

Your definition of dualism is unnecessarily restrictive, and that may be confusing the issue. All discoursive thought is dualistic, not just thoughts about god or consciousness.

If I say, "This sandwich is good", I am creating dualisms re: this sandwich vs. other sandwiches; this sandwich vs. all things that are not sandwiches; good sandwiches vs. bad or mediochre sandwiches; and anything good vs. anything that is not good.

It is this inherently dualistic mode of thought that non-dualism seeks to transcend. Yes, non-duality is attainable. It is another word for enlightenment.

Om mani padme hum
Keith



You have answered the first question, thank you, and seeing as you have provided guidance on enlightenment as non-duality, would there be any specific reason(s) you didn't answer the second and third pertinent questions ?

edit: Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist like that sandwich doesn't exist when "all is sandwich" ?
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby KeithBC » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:03 pm

garudha wrote:You have answered the first question, thank you, and seeing as you have provided guidance on enlightenment as non-duality, would there be any specific reason(s) you didn't answer the second and third pertinent questions ?

edit: Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist like that sandwich doesn't exist when "all is sandwich" ?

The whole point of what I was saying is that all distinctions ("this" vs. "that") are the realm of duality. The distinction between Pure Land and "impure land" is one of those distinctions. In nonduality, there is no such distinction. Whole vs. fragmented is another such nonexistent distinction.

So are credibls vs. incredible, true vs. false non-dual experience, and any other duality you care to name. Separate realms are duality. To name a distinction is to create duality. Of course there is no non-duality in the process of naming dualities.

The experience of nonduality is neither this nor that nor both this and that, nor neither this nor that.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby PorkChop » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:25 pm

garudha wrote:
KeithBC wrote:
garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?

Your definition of dualism is unnecessarily restrictive, and that may be confusing the issue. All discoursive thought is dualistic, not just thoughts about god or consciousness.

If I say, "This sandwich is good", I am creating dualisms re: this sandwich vs. other sandwiches; this sandwich vs. all things that are not sandwiches; good sandwiches vs. bad or mediochre sandwiches; and anything good vs. anything that is not good.

It is this inherently dualistic mode of thought that non-dualism seeks to transcend. Yes, non-duality is attainable. It is another word for enlightenment.

Om mani padme hum
Keith



You have answered the first question, thank you, and seeing as you have provided guidance on enlightenment as non-duality, would there be any specific reason(s) you didn't answer the second and third pertinent questions ?


It's telling that instead of answering those who asked for clarification, your first reply was singling one reply out for being "on-topic". A lot of people gave you on-topic replies, whether or not you understood what they were saying is another question.

The reason questions #2 and #3 weren't answered is probably because the entire question of "where" loses all meaning when there is no longer a dualism between mind and object. Locality no longer applies ie "Buddhas stand nowhere like empty space". Thinking that Pure Lands exist outside the Mind is a wrong view. Thinking that because when the Mind becomes pure, the land becomes pure it means that the Pure Lands are something one cannot experience, is also a wrong view.

As promised, my quotes....
10 Doubts about the Pure Land from the book 'Pure Land Buddhism' wrote:Question 2
All phenomena are by nature empty, always unborn (Non-Birth), equal and still. Are we not going against this truth when we abandon this world, seeking rebirth in the Land of Ultimate Bliss? The (Vimalakirti) Sutra teaches that “to be reborn in the Pure Land,you should first purify your own Mind; only when the Mind is pure, will the Buddha lands be pure.” Are not Pure Land followers going against this truth?

Answer:
This question involves two principles and can be answered on two levels.
(A) On the level of generality, if you think that seeking rebirth in the Pure Land means “leaving here and seeking there”, and is therefore incompatible with the Truth of Equal Thusness, are you not committing the same mistake by grasping at this Saha World and not seeking rebirth in the Pure Land, i.e., “leaving there and grasping here”? If, on the other hand, you say, “I am neither seeking rebirth there, nor do I wish to remain here,” you fall into the error of nihilism.

The Diamond Sutra states in this connection: “Subhuti, ... do not have such a thought. Why? Because one who develops the Supreme Enlightened Mind does not advocate the (total) annihilation (of the marks of the dharmas.)” (Bilingual Buddhist Series, Vol. 1. Taipei: Buddhist Cultural Service, 1962, p. 130.)

(B) On the level of Specifics, since you have brought up the truth of Non-Birth and the Pure Mind, I would like to give the following explanation.

Non-Birth is precisely the truth of No-Birth and No-Death. No-Birth means that all dharmas are false aggregates, born of causes and conditions, with no Self-Nature. Therefor, they have no real “birth nature” or “time of birth”. Upon analysis, they do not really come from anywhere. Therefore, they are said to have No-Birth.

No-Death means that, since phenomena have no Self-Nature, when they are extinguished, they cannot be considered dead. Because they have no real place to return to,they are said to be not extinct (No-Death).

For this reason, the truth of Non-Birth (or No-Birth No-Death) cannot exist outside of ordinary phenomena, which are subject to birth and death. Therefore, Non-Birth does not mean not seeking rebirth in the Pure Land.

The Treatise on the Middle Way states: “Dharmas (phenomena) are born of causes and conditions. I say they are thus empty. They are also called false and fictitious, and that is also the truth of the Middle Way.”

It also states: “Dharmas are neither born spontaneously nor do they arise from others.They are born neither together with nor apart from causes and conditions.They are therefore said to have Non-Birth.”

The Vimalakirti Sutra states:“Although he knows that Buddha Lands / Are void like living beings /He goes on practicing the Pure Land (Dharma) / to teach and convert men.”(Charles Luk, The Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, p. 88.)

It also states:

“We can build mansions at will on empty land, but it is impossible to build in the middle of empty space.”

When the Buddhas preach, they usually rely on the Two Truths (ultimate and conventional). They do not destroy the fictitious, provisional identities of phenomena while revealing their true characteristics.

That is why the wise, while earnestly striving for rebirth in the Pure Land, also understand that the nature of rebirth is intrinsically empty. This is true Non-Birth, and also the meaning of “only when the Mind is pure, will the Buddha Lands be pure”.

The dull and ignorant, on the other hand, are caught up in the concept of birth. Upon hearing the term “Birth”, they understand it as actual birth; hearing of “Non-Birth”, they(cling to its literal meaning) and think that there is no rebirth anywhere. Little do they realize that “Birth is precisely Non-Birth, and Non-Birth does not hinder Birth.”

Because they do not understand this principle, they provoke arguments, slandering and deprecating those who seek rebirth in the Western Pure Land. What a great mistake! They are guilty of vilifying the Dharma and belong to the ranks of deluded externalists (non-Buddhists)

(In the Answer to Question 3, the Author quotes the Avatamsaka Sutra)
Thus, the Avatamsaka Sutra states:
“The bodies of all the Buddhas
are the body of any one Buddha.
They have the same Mind and the same wisdom.
They are also equal in power and fearlessness.”

The Avatamsaka Sutra further states:
“It is like the full moon, round and bright, its image reflected in all rivers
and ponds. Although the reflection is everywhere, there is but a single moon.
So it is with ... (the Buddhas). Although they appear in all realms, their bodies
are non-dual.”

...

Question 9
The Western Pure Land is ten billion Buddha Lands away from here. Common, ordinary people are weak and frail. How can they reach it?

Answer:
The Western Pure Land is described as being ten billion Buddha Lands away from here only with respect to the limited concepts of ordinary people with eyes of flesh and blood, mired in birth and death.

For those who have attained the pure karma of rebirth in the Pure Land, the Mind in samadhi at the time of death is precisely the Mind reborn in the Pure Land. As soon as the thought (of rebirth) arises, rebirth is achieved. Thus, the Meditation Sutra states that“the Land of Amitabha Buddha is not far from here!” Moreover, the power of karma is inconceivable. In the space of one thought, rebirth in the Pure Land is achieved. There is no need to worry about distance.

This is analogous to a person asleep and dreaming. Although his body is on the bed,his Mind is travelling all over, to all worlds, as though he were awake. Rebirth in the Pure Land is, generally speaking, similar to this example.


Also..

Doubts & Questions about Pure Land (Ching-t'u Huo-wen) from the book 'Pure Land Buddhism' wrote:Question 4
...I used to hear such expressions as "Self-Nature Amitabha, Mind-Only Pure Land," and could not but secretly rejoice! That was so until I glanced through the Pure Land sutras and commentaries and discovered that the Pure Land is the Land of Ultimate Bliss, ten billion Buddha lands from here, and that Amitabha Buddha is the teacher of that Land. Thus, there seems to be a contradiction: here [i.e., Mind-Only Pure Land] and there [i.e., Pure Land in the West] are quite distant, and outside the truth of Mind-Only Self-Nature! How shall I understand this question?

Answer:
You still have a superficial and narrow understanding of the issue. Do you not know that your True Mind is all-extensive and all-illuminating? The Surangama Sutra states:

"The various mountains, rivers and continents, even the empty
space outside our physical body, are all realms and phenomena
within the wonderful, bright True Mind."

It further states:
"Phenomena which are born - they are all manifestations of
Mind-Only."

Therefore, where can you find a Buddha land outside the Mind? Thus, the concept of Mind-Only Pure Land refers to the Pure Land within our True Mind. This is no different from the ocean, from which springs an untold number of bubbles, none of which is outside the wide ocean. It is also like the specks of dust in the soil, none of which is not soil. Likewise, there is no Buddha land which is not Mind. Therefore, sages and saints have said:

"This single Mind encompasses the four kinds of Lands in
their totality: a) the Land of Common Residence of beings
and saints; b) the Land of Expediency; c) the Land of True
Reward and d) the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light (Eternal
Serenity and Illumination)...." [The Land of Common
Residence is further divided into the Common Residence Pure
Land and the Common Residence Impure Land.]

The distinctions among the four lands are based on different levels of cultivation and achievement; however, they are in fact but one realm. The True Mind encompasses the ten thousand phenomena. Lands as numerous as the specks of dust throughout the ten directions are none other than the realms in our own Mind; the countless Buddhas of the Three Periods of Time are also the Buddhas in our own Mind. Nothing exists outside our Self-Mind. Understanding this truth, we realize that there is no land which is established independently of our own Mind, there is no Buddha who appears without relying on our nature. This being the case, how can the Western Pure Land ten billion Buddha lands away from here not be the Pure Land of Mind-Only?

The Land of Ultimate Bliss being thus, the Teacher of that Land is, likewise, Buddha Amitabha of the Self Nature. We should know that this Mind encompasses the totality of the Ten Realms, bodies and lands freely interpenetrating ad infinitum. We should know, further, that Mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, while three, are in fact one: they have the same Nature and are no different from one another. Sentient beings and Buddhas appear interchangeably, their thoughts meshing with one another's...

The realm of the True Mind, encompassing untold lands, can be likened to the Jewel Net of Indra described in the Avatamsaka Sutra.

[This is a net said to hang in the palace of Indra, the king of the gods. At each interstice of the net is a reflecting jewel, which mirrors not only the adjacent jewels but the multiple images reflected in them. This famous image is meant to describe the unimpeded interpenetration of all and everything.]

The Western Pure Land, as well as each of the ten billion Buddha lands, resembles one of the jewels in Indra's net.

On a more subtle level, throughout each and every land from the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and Arhats down to animals, hungry ghosts and hells, each and every thing resembles one of the jewels. Buddha Amitabha himself is one of the jewels. Therefore, to see one Buddha is to see all the Buddhas of the ten directions as well as the nine realms of sentient beings throughout the ten directions. The multitude of Buddha lands, the ten directions of the past and present - the whole constitutes an "ocean seal," "sudden and perfect." There are no other dharmas.

Thus, the "dusts" [sensory objects] throughout the ten billion Buddha lands are born by transformation precisely within our own Self-Mind. How can the "substance" [i.e., beings] which appears in the nine Lotus Grades be separate from or outside the True Thusness Buddha? These explanations are the enlightened teachings of the Buddhas, Patriarchs, sages, and saints. If we understand this truth, we will see that the Western Pure Land is Mind-Only, each Buddha land, each mote of dust, is also Mind-Only, Lord Amitabha Buddha is the Self-Nature, and each Buddha, each sentient being is also the Self-Nature. Thus, what is there to doubt?


Also mentioned
from the book 'Pure Land Buddhism' wrote:Non-dual.
"This is synonymous with reality, voidness, etc. But it must
be remembered that nonduality does not necessarily mean
unity, that unity is only one of the pair unity-duality; hence
nonduality implies nonunity as well."
-Originally from Robert Thurman, The
Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti
, p. 165

...

Non-Dual. Key Buddhist truth. Can be understood as not two and not one - transcending two and one. Equivalent to reality, emptiness...

...

Noumenon/Phenomena.
Noumenon: principle, essence of things, always one and indivisible.
Phenomena: All things and events. Used in plural form to contrast with noumenon.

...

Vimalakirti Sutra. A key Mahayana sutra particularly popular with Zen and to a lesser extent Pure Land followers. The main protagonist is a layman named Vimalakirti who is the equal of many Bodhisattvas in wisdom, eloquence, etc. He explained the teaching of Emptiness in terms of non-duality... "The true nature of things is beyond the limiting concepts imposed by words." Thus, when asked by Manjusri to define the non-dual truth, Vimalakirti simply remained silent.


still more...

p136 from the book 'Pure Land Buddhism' wrote:Elder Master T'ien Ju added, "Zen and Pure Land have always been Non-Dual. If you thoroughly understand, you thoroughly understand them both; if you miss the point, you miss the point of both - because there are no dharmas outside the Mind, no Mind outside of dharmas. You should make no mistake about this!"

The Zen guest immediately made his obeisance and said, "I am very fortunate to have received instruction from you, Master. I now know the path back to my Self-Nature, the way home." He then slowly took his leave and departed.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby Aemilius » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:14 am

garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?



The premises of the question are untrue, I mean the first two sentences. In european philosophy too the existence of matter has been denied by certain philosophers. We find in Betrand Russell's Problems of Philosophy that its first four chapters are: 1. Appearance and Reality, 2. The Existence of matter, 3. The Nature of Matter, 4. Idealism, ...

If matter has no independent existence, it means that the perceiver and percept or object are nondual. Therefore the basic idea exists also in european thinking.
And also, there is a long tradition of atheism in Europe, begun in the times of ancient Rome and Greece. The god and man duality is not a norm in european philosophy.

There is no difficulty at all in the non-duality of purelands. It is similar to the perception of everything else. Already when you think about a pureland, it is an object or percept of your mental consciousness.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:17 pm

Aemilius wrote:
garudha wrote:Normally "Dualism" refers to the separation of the present material world and God. In Eastern philosophies "Dualism" refers to consciousness and matter.

Does Buddhism propose that we might be able to experience non-duality? and when non-duality is present as experience, where should we find these Pure Lands ?

If they (Pure lands) still exist as a separate realm, how can the experience of non-duality be whole, and, therefore credible as a true non-dual experience ?



The premises of the question are untrue, I mean the first two sentences. In european philosophy too the existence of matter has been denied by certain philosophers. We find in Betrand Russell's Problems of Philosophy that its first four chapters are: 1. Appearance and Reality, 2. The Existence of matter, 3. The Nature of Matter, 4. Idealism, ...

If matter has no independent existence, it means that the perceiver and percept or object are nondual. Therefore the basic idea exists also in european thinking.
And also, there is a long tradition of atheism in Europe, begun in the times of ancient Rome and Greece. The god and man duality is not a norm in european philosophy.

There is no difficulty at all in the non-duality of purelands. It is similar to the perception of everything else. Already when you think about a pureland, it is an object or percept of your mental consciousness.


So (1) If a pure land is conceptualized it could exist but would be outside of ones perception (dualism), and , (2) if a pure land not conceptualized then it doesn't exist and becomes part of ones own experience (non-dual).
Seems like a magic cat in a box to me. :thinking:
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby PorkChop » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:15 am

garudha wrote:So (1) If a pure land is conceptualized it could exist but would be outside of ones perception (dualism), and , (2) if a pure land not conceptualized then it doesn't exist and becomes part of ones own experience (non-dual).
Seems like a magic cat in a box to me. :thinking:


Was kind of hoping someone else could answer this that is more intelligent than I am, but I figured since you haven't gotten a response, I would take a stab....

In response to (1):
Since the adornments of the Pure Land constitute the 37 attributes of enlightenment and would already be present in one's own mindstream (to varying degrees), the fact that the sum total could not be perceived at one's current unenlightened state, does not mean that any attributes would be completely out of the bounds of ones perception.

The adornments of the Pure Land include the 37 limbs of enlightenment, which consist of:
Four frames of reference:
Contemplation of the body (kayanupassana, S. kayānupasthāna)
Contemplation of feelings (vedananupassana, S. vedanānupasthāna)
Contemplation of consciousness (cittanupassana, S. cittanupasthāna)
Contemplation of mental qualities (dhammanupassana, S. dharmanupasthāna)
Four right exertions:
Exertion for the preventing of non-arising of unskillful states to arise
Exertion for the abandoning of the already arisen unskillful states
Exertion for the arising of skillful states
Exertion for the sustaining and increasing of arisen skillful states
Four bases of power:
Will (chanda, S. chanda)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Consciousness (citta, S. citta)
Discrimination (vimamsa or vīmaŋsā, S. mimāṃsā)
Five Faculties:
Faith (saddha, S. śraddā)
Energy (viriya, s. virya)
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Wisdom (panna, S. prajñā)
Five established powers:
Faith (saddha, S. śraddā)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Wisdom (panna, S. prajñā)
Seven factors of Enlightenment:
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Investigation (dhamma vicaya, S. dharmapravicaya)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Joy (pīti, S. prīti)
Tranquility (passaddhi, S. praśrabdhi)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Equanimity (upekkha, S. upekṣā)
Noble 8 fold path:
Right View (samma ditthi, S. samyag-dṛṣṭi)
Right Intention (samma sankappa, S. samyak-saṃkalpa)
Right Speech (samma vacca, S. samyag-vāc)
Right Action (samma kammanta, S. samyak-karmānta)
Right Livelihood (samma ajiva, S. samyag-ājīva)
Right Energy (samma vayama, S. samyag-vyāyāma)
Right Mindfulness (samma sati, S. samyak-smṛti)
Right Concentration (samma samadhi, S. samyak-samādhi)

-the point is that any of these could be present (albeit in latent form) in one's conscious or subconscious thought means that even if one could not completely perceive the Pure Lands, then one should be able to perceive parts or all of any of the above as latent tendencies of one's mind stream. This means that one would not be in a situation where one would be completely unable to perceive any aspects of the Pure Land in one's normal thinking, thus rendering your first assertion false.

The assertion that:
(2) if a pure land not conceptualized then it doesn't exist and becomes part of ones own experience (non-dual).
Means that one can only respond with the idea that:
None of the attributes listed above rely on the fact that they are conceptualized.
Thus, your second assertion is also false.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:30 am

PorkChop wrote:The adornments of the Pure Land include the 37 limbs of enlightenment, which consist of:
Four frames of reference:
Contemplation of the body (kayanupassana, S. kayānupasthāna)
Contemplation of feelings (vedananupassana, S. vedanānupasthāna)
Contemplation of consciousness (cittanupassana, S. cittanupasthāna)
Contemplation of mental qualities (dhammanupassana, S. dharmanupasthāna)
Four right exertions:
Exertion for the preventing of non-arising of unskillful states to arise
Exertion for the abandoning of the already arisen unskillful states
Exertion for the arising of skillful states
Exertion for the sustaining and increasing of arisen skillful states
Four bases of power:
Will (chanda, S. chanda)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Consciousness (citta, S. citta)
Discrimination (vimamsa or vīmaŋsā, S. mimāṃsā)
Five Faculties:
Faith (saddha, S. śraddā)
Energy (viriya, s. virya)
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Wisdom (panna, S. prajñā)
Five established powers:
Faith (saddha, S. śraddā)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Wisdom (panna, S. prajñā)
Seven factors of Enlightenment:
Mindfulness (sati, S. smṛti)
Investigation (dhamma vicaya, S. dharmapravicaya)
Energy (viriya, S. virya)
Joy (pīti, S. prīti)
Tranquility (passaddhi, S. praśrabdhi)
Concentration (samadhi, S. samādhi)
Equanimity (upekkha, S. upekṣā)
Noble 8 fold path:
Right View (samma ditthi, S. samyag-dṛṣṭi)
Right Intention (samma sankappa, S. samyak-saṃkalpa)
Right Speech (samma vacca, S. samyag-vāc)
Right Action (samma kammanta, S. samyak-karmānta)
Right Livelihood (samma ajiva, S. samyag-ājīva)
Right Energy (samma vayama, S. samyag-vyāyāma)
Right Mindfulness (samma sati, S. samyak-smṛti)
Right Concentration (samma samadhi, S. samyak-samādhi)


Seems like a massive list of conceptualization. Thankfully my life is not so complicated. :cheers:

Will i Be Buddha today? -no. Will i Be Buddha tomorrow? -no. Do i care about being Buddha? -no. What will i do? Eat some food, go on internet, listen to nice singing. Nothing to be done. Very good. I'm happy. Happy fool. la la la.

to be reborn in the Pure Land
Why worry about rebirth? Seems like a form of madness to me. Who cares... You?
Last edited by garudha on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby PorkChop » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:36 am

garudha wrote:Seems like a massive list of conceptualization. Thankfully my life is not so complicated. :cheers:


So you deny any of those attributes could apply to you?
As I said in my post they are absolutely not reliant on being conceived of as such.
Does one need to have a concept of compassion to display compassion?
How about joy, concentration, equanimity?
The answer to that would seem obvious.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby garudha » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:46 am

PorkChop wrote:
garudha wrote:Seems like a massive list of conceptualization. Thankfully my life is not so complicated. :cheers:


So you deny any of those attributes could apply to you?
As I said in my post they are absolutely not reliant on being conceived of as such.
Does one need to have a concept of compassion to display compassion?
How about joy, concentration, equanimity?
The answer to that would seem obvious.


Sorry we seem unable to cultivate a conversation. For instance, I don't think that compassion is a concept. We're basically unable to converse about anything. Sorry.

So you deny any of those attributes could apply to you?


Very bizarre question. Yes, I deny everything totally and without hesitation.
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Re: Pure lands & non-duality

Postby PorkChop » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:50 am

garudha wrote:
PorkChop wrote:
garudha wrote:Seems like a massive list of conceptualization. Thankfully my life is not so complicated. :cheers:


So you deny any of those attributes could apply to you?
As I said in my post they are absolutely not reliant on being conceived of as such.
Does one need to have a concept of compassion to display compassion?
How about joy, concentration, equanimity?
The answer to that would seem obvious.


Sorry we seem unable to cultivate a conversation. For instance, I don't think that compassion is a concept. We're basically unable to converse about anything. Sorry.


Wait, so now you've changed your mind and the 37 attributes I listed are no longer concepts?
Gotcha.

garudha wrote:
Pork Chop wrote:So you deny any of those attributes could apply to you?

Very bizarre question. Do you know who I am ? --I don't know where to begin.

I guess you don't understand the line of reason.
I've maintained that according to doctrine, it is the 37 attributes that make up the experience of the Pure Land.
I've maintained that these attributes are universal and not dependent on conceptualization.
You seemed to have flip-flopped as to whether you agree with this or not and no longer wish to discuss.
In that case, have a nice day.
Last edited by PorkChop on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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