Difference between consciousness and the mind

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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:12 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:You cannot define a term by using itself or referencing to everything. Such definition is nonsense.

.
What? Well find me something that isn't true. You can't because "nothing" does not exist.
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby odysseus » Sat May 03, 2014 9:31 am

garudha wrote:You can't because "nothing" does not exist.


Buddhism describes 31 planes of existence, but there are actually 32. The utmost worst is "non-existence", but this is usually censored because it´s terrifying to think about. :soapbox:
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sat May 03, 2014 6:18 pm

odysseus wrote:
garudha wrote:You can't because "nothing" does not exist.


Buddhism describes 31 planes of existence, but there are actually 32. The utmost worst is "non-existence", but this is usually censored because it´s terrifying to think about. :soapbox:


Buddhism says that non-existence actually exists ? That's quite a claim. Are you sure you don't mean that YOU can't exist (separately) in a state of Nibbana ?
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby odysseus » Sat May 03, 2014 7:20 pm

garudha wrote:
odysseus wrote:
Buddhism describes 31 planes of existence, but there are actually 32. The utmost worst is "non-existence", but this is usually censored because it´s terrifying to think about. :soapbox:


Buddhism says that non-existence actually exists ? That's quite a claim. Are you sure you don't mean that YOU can't exist (separately) in a state of Nibbana ?


Non-existence is lower than death itself, meaning in quick terms that one is completely forgotten by "all loved ones" and so on, like no traces of a life left (very rare I think). A vacuum in empty space is non-existence too.

When Nirvana is reached, you´re like you said not separate anymore but you still are conscious of "living, and yourself". :namaste:
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sun May 04, 2014 10:41 pm

odysseus wrote:
garudha wrote:
odysseus wrote:
Buddhism describes 31 planes of existence, but there are actually 32. The utmost worst is "non-existence", but this is usually censored because it´s terrifying to think about. :soapbox:


Buddhism says that non-existence actually exists ? That's quite a claim. Are you sure you don't mean that YOU can't exist (separately) in a state of Nibbana ?


Non-existence is lower than death itself, meaning in quick terms that one is completely forgotten by "all loved ones" and so on, like no traces of a life left (very rare I think). A vacuum in empty space is non-existence too.

When Nirvana is reached, you´re like you said not separate anymore but you still are conscious of "living, and yourself". :namaste:


Thanks for explaining it but I don't really understand. Maybe I'm tired.

"Non-existence is lower than death itself" I don't know what either of those two things are, so, the combination is even harder to understand :-). What is death?
"A vacuum in empty space is non-existence too.". Yeah but if there is space then there is something, isn't there? --or do you refer to some complicated physics?
"When Nirvana is reached, you´re like you said not separate anymore but you still are conscious of "living, and yourself""... Maybe only Nirvana exists but the "you" is gone? --so you don't exist (like you said) but only the real things exists?
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 05, 2014 12:27 am

Garudha wrote:Thanks for explaining it but I don't really understand. Maybe I'm tired.


Or maybe you really don't understand it. And that's OK - not understanding it is fine. The problems only start when you *think* you understand it, but you really don't.
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby odysseus » Mon May 05, 2014 5:50 am

garudha wrote:"Non-existence is lower than death itself" I don't know what either of those two things are, so, the combination is even harder to understand :-). What is death?


I should have said "lower than hell", sorry. I imagine hell is somewhat rare too, though death is a kind of hell on Earth like it´s said.

garudha wrote:"A vacuum in empty space is non-existence too.". Yeah but if there is space then there is something, isn't there? --or do you refer to some complicated physics?


Buddhists should be hobby scientists also, not complicated. There are invisible particles and waves in space (outside our atmosphere), but there exist areas in space without particles or waves = vacuum. Then we can say that nothing exists there (not even space).

garudha wrote:"When Nirvana is reached, you´re like you said not separate anymore but you still are conscious of "living, and yourself""... Maybe only Nirvana exists but the "you" is gone? --so you don't exist (like you said) but only the real things exists?


Yes, the notion of SELF has gone. Depends how you want to define "you don´t exist", it can be confusing to people to think annihilation/disappearance. "Only the real things exist": Well it cannot get more "real deal" than with Nirvana, sir!
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby muni » Mon May 05, 2014 8:13 am

Depends how you want to define "you don´t exist", it can be confusing to people to think annihilation/
disappearance


That can be a reason for resistence to keep identity and its characteristics going on. Letting go is then going in the nowhere instead of very peace. I guess letting go needs surrendering identity and its goods and bads completely, by trust. Not trusting the apprehended artificial ideation.

like you said not separate anymore but you still are conscious


As long as consciousness/mind is locked into a thinking of being a self, an identity ( broken/separate awareness), it is triggered by its inner and outer images/movements/other. It seems, that is meant with being enslaved of the mind, which is suffering. I guess conscious can without suffering.
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby White Lotus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:50 pm

I wish to read this thread carefully, it was mentioned in the support thread for Malcom/Namdrol and so am posting here. I have the view that consciousness though extinguished remains as fundamental mind and that fundamental mind can still be referred to as consciousness, which has no basis nor support whatsoever, neither in the body, nor in the structure of the brain. best wishes, Tom.
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby SeekerNo1000003 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:07 pm

Didn't have the time to read all the posts, but perhaps I could contribute something. The following are the excerpts from
"Buddhist Psychology" by Geshe Tashi Tsering, pp.15-16

"...Mind is mere experience -- it is not matter; therefore its cause must be the same...Mind can affect matter and vice versa, but the two are mutually exclusive. For if something is devoid of color, shape, or material dimension, it cannot at the same time be material. That does not mean, however, that mind and body aren't closely interconnected. The deeper we explore the nature of mind in Buddhist psychology, the more we see the interconnection of mind and body and that certain levels of mind depend heavily on both the function and existence of the physical nervous system."

"Many gross consciousnesses, such as our five sense consciousnesses, cannot function without our nervous system or brain. That is very clear. In order for the eye consciousness to function as something that is clear and knowing, it depends on three conditions. One of those is the eye sense organ...."

"The reason Buddhism so firmly asserts that mind is not body is because the fundamental tenets of Buddhism revolve around the law of karma, or cause and effect. At death the body disappears. If mind and body were the same, what we think of as mind would also disappear. Without a continuum of mind, result could never follow cause, the chain would be broken."
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