Difference between consciousness and the mind

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Gwenn Dana » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:The classical division in Buddhadharma is that there is sentient life and non-sentient life. In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.


Thank you. Models apparently are not always as unanimous as one might think, even in a similar context.
Gwenn Dana
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:28 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:Hm. Sitting here I think to myself: the ball moves through the air, or the air floats around the ball.

Why not just play pool?

Best wishes
Gwenn


Hm. Sitting here I think to myself: does the world revolve around Gwenn or not?

Then I realise that it does, and it revolves around me too.

How? All locations in the Universe are located in the Single Principle, and, Mind is located at all locations in the Universe.
Why? The torus of Eternity is causality of all manifestations of which are the simultaneous cessation of the Single Principle.

Therefore there is no reason except itself and the arising of all things is the spontaneous display of paradox.

Also, "Lumiosity" is a static subject and the residue occurs, via the Single Principle, as objectivity within the Mind.
Yes! your brain, right now, is both the burning platform, and emission, of Eternal Lumiosity and exists (unborn within the Single Principle), and expressed, as the unified matrices of universal Mind.

It should be obvious that there is no consciousness, indeed it is to "normal" rational people.
However; we ourselves (scholars of metaphysics) are perpetuating the myth of a separate agency that should exist on a super-natural basis. This is certainly madness.

Conclusion; Love is ( the resolution of a self-generating paradox ) acceptance of itself.
Last edited by garudha on Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~ "The requested topic does not exist" ~
User avatar
garudha
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:36 pm

Vajraprajnakhadga wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:The the idea that gender is determined by past karma is linked to the (cultural) notion that birth as a female is an unfortunate event somehow due to negative actions in the past.


That is not a universal perspective. Nyingma in particular have yogini traditions where female birth is seen as auspicious. The view that male rebirth is superior is rooted in patriarchal monasticism, nothing more.


True. It is not universal. But is that attitude the exception? Must a female be exceptional in some way, in order for it to be considered that her birth as a female was not the result of negative karma?
. . .
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Adi » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:44 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:True. It is not universal. But is that attitude the exception? Must a female be exceptional in some way, in order for it to be considered that her birth as a female was not the result of negative karma?
. . .


The freedoms and advantages enumerated in Tibetan Buddhism aren't gender specific. That being said there seems to have been a lot of cultural stuff infused with it so that people seemed happier with sons rather than daughters. Many reasons were thought up for that but none hold up well under analysis.

Adi
Adi
 
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:10 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:I assume the popular view upon consciousness (with-knowing) is being aware of being aware, which would be awareness reflecting upon itself as consciousness and creating an illusory ego in the process, by reflecting upon it-self.

I understood so far that some people here suggest consciousness in Buddhist terms is something prior to awareness, that transcends "being aware", which arises because our thinking facility works the way it does, which is a state that expresses itself in sentient beings. In a way that a certain "way of experiencing or conducting one-self (or not-self or whatever)" will prevail and transcend lifetimes, carried on by karmic forces, be those from what we call matter, genetics, the effect of being born into a particular society that comes with a certain way of conditoning, or available information that will set sail for a path out of it. Since the Buddha has spread the word, there was a seed, and subsequent enlightenment will happen dependently. It may also arise independently. Ooops, no. It cannot arise independently. That would be constructing a world that lives in a box which is not related in any way to the world where buddha did exist. Such a world does not exist. Since enlightenment is then only possible when all beings are already enlightened.

Best wishes
Gwenn


Gautama Siddartha cut the root of conciousness.
I personally believe he arose independently.
That is why we refer to "liberation".
You must take into account that it was/is normal, in India, to believe that everything exists as a display of (the) god(s) own being.
Enlightening? Do you think Enlightening refers to your state of mind? Think, your brain is a wonderful tool, and Buddha had one too.
Last edited by garudha on Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~ "The requested topic does not exist" ~
User avatar
garudha
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Gwenn Dana » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:20 pm

@garudha: Who should be thinking?
Gwenn Dana
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:22 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:@garudha: Who should be thinking?

Why are you asking me these ridiculous questions.
I provided, in several posts prior, an explanation of an eternal manifestation of quantum-phenomena and then you ask me the most basic question in philosophy!

Edit. Answer: You are thinking, Gwenn.
~ "The requested topic does not exist" ~
User avatar
garudha
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby odysseus » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:56 am

Gwenn Dana wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The classical division in Buddhadharma is that there is sentient life and non-sentient life. In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.


Thank you. Models apparently are not always as unanimous as one might think, even in a similar context.


Sure, but this does´t mean that plants etc. are sentient. It means that there is no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness.
Buddha is best on Earth!
My lord is best...
User avatar
odysseus
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Gwenn Dana » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:24 am

@osysseus: Thank you. It's just labels anyways. That particular difference does not matter for my personal practice, no reason arguing on it. I understand that it may well make a difference for the work of somebody who practice a medicine which is based on it.

@garudha: When you cut my body open, where do I be?

Best wishes
Gwenn
Gwenn Dana
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:42 am

odysseus wrote:
Gwenn Dana wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The classical division in Buddhadharma is that there is sentient life and non-sentient life. In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.


Thank you. Models apparently are not always as unanimous as one might think, even in a similar context.


Sure, but this does´t mean that plants etc. are sentient. It means that there is no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness.


Not necessarily,

You say a plant is not sentient, but that's only from a fixed point of view, or, the perspective of non-sentience is assumed from any given position in time & space.
From another point of view (and necessarily a non-dual Dzogchen one); the plant is animated as much as anything else in the universe.

Obviously the plant can't think for itself, it's just following the inherent laws of manifested phenomena.
However; considering that all manifested phenomena is said to exist in Mind, we could say the plant is an expression of universal Mind.

What about the clouds and the rain? They too are following the inherent laws of manifested phenomena, aren't they?
When we take a look; we see that everything is following the rules. Scientists, as much as they try, can't yet beat these rules.

It is said that Buddha Shakyamuni escaped from Samsara, yet, he still existed as phenomena in the world for the rest of his life.
It is also said that Buddha Shakyamuni would not be reborn. He had achieved death. How? He had removed himself from bodhi causality.

Finally, and in keeping with the above, it is said that a Buddha is self-born as a lotus-flower.

edit:
no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness
It could be argued that this realization is not one to be "seen" (seeing emptiness in samsara) but one to be "known" from understanding bodhi causality.

@garudha: When you cut my body open, where do I be?
I heard, if someone doesn't know where they're going then they'll easily get there.
~ "The requested topic does not exist" ~
User avatar
garudha
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:08 pm

Vajraprajnakhadga wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:The the idea that gender is determined by past karma is linked to the (cultural) notion that birth as a female is an unfortunate event somehow due to negative actions in the past.


That is not a universal perspective. Nyingma in particular have yogini traditions where female birth is seen as auspicious. The view that male rebirth is superior is rooted in patriarchal monasticism, nothing more.



No, it is a practical observation. Women have more illnesses, they endure the hardship of childbirth, menstruation, etc. It is for this reason that there are many sutras where women are encouraged to desire rebirth as men in their next life.

On the other hand, as you note, in all highest yoga tantra traditions, the negative view of female birth is reversed because all women have the nature of prajñā. This is not an especially "Nyingma" perspective.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11741
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:10 pm

odysseus wrote:
Gwenn Dana wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The classical division in Buddhadharma is that there is sentient life and non-sentient life. In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.


Thank you. Models apparently are not always as unanimous as one might think, even in a similar context.


Sure, but this does´t mean that plants etc. are sentient. It means that there is no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness.


It means that everything is the state of wisdom (jñāna) right from the beginning.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11741
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:12 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Vajraprajnakhadga wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:The the idea that gender is determined by past karma is linked to the (cultural) notion that birth as a female is an unfortunate event somehow due to negative actions in the past.


That is not a universal perspective. Nyingma in particular have yogini traditions where female birth is seen as auspicious. The view that male rebirth is superior is rooted in patriarchal monasticism, nothing more.


True. It is not universal. But is that attitude the exception? Must a female be exceptional in some way, in order for it to be considered that her birth as a female was not the result of negative karma?
. . .



In general, in Indian Buddhism, female birth is considered a disadvantage. A term often seen in sutras is "skye dman", inferior birth, used frequently for women. It is based on a Sanskrit original, but I forget what it is, something like hinajati.

It does not mean that women cannot achieve awakening, it means however they have some obstacles men do not have.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11741
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, it is a practical observation. Women have more illnesses, they endure the hardship of childbirth, menstruation, etc. It is for this reason that there are many sutras where women are encouraged to desire rebirth as men in their next life.


Women don't necessarily have more illnesses than men, although the role that a particular society puts women in might make them more predisposed to illness. Everyone endures hardships. Perhaps the notion that women become the property of their husbands (and all that this implies) has more to do with it. Generally speaking, Indian culture (including Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist) regards women as inferior. There is no way around this simple fact.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
 
Posts: 2845
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Gwenn Dana » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:It does not mean that women cannot achieve awakening, it means however they have some obstacles men do not have.


If it´s only a couple obstacles more then there´s nothing even worth considering.

Best wishes
Gwenn
Gwenn Dana
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:11 am

odysseus wrote:I´ll post this recent article about a scientific theory of consciousness, since the thread is touching upon this subject too.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085105.htm

Previously, I've not paid much attention to Penrose and Hameroff because I was a little skeptical about them. But after the post by odysseus, I wanted to understand better what they were actually proposing,and found this interesting interview on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM

The interview was an hour long. For those who prefer not to go through the whole video, the really interesting bits start from 43 minutes onwards into the video.

For those interested in knowing a little more about Orch OR : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5XYf1GJBhg
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby garudha » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:10 am

Sherab wrote:
odysseus wrote:I´ll post this recent article about a scientific theory of consciousness, since the thread is touching upon this subject too.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085105.htm

Previously, I've not paid much attention to Penrose and Hameroff because I was a little skeptical about them. But after the post by odysseus, I wanted to understand better what they were actually proposing,and found this interesting interview on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM

The interview was an hour long. For those who prefer not to go through the whole video, the really interesting bits start from 43 minutes onwards into the video.

For those interested in knowing a little more about Orch OR : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5XYf1GJBhg


Thanks for these links. :ugeek:
~ "The requested topic does not exist" ~
User avatar
garudha
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby muni » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:48 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Generally speaking, Indian culture (including Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist) regards women as inferior. There is no way around this simple fact.
.
.
.


Facts are truths. Where are these other than by fabricating mind, putting all cultural and so on- truths on fabricated papers, making fabricated borders and fabricate a label in different sounds/languages for its being: human what has to learn/memorize all these apprehensions as the truth. Man-woman = nothing than habits' inequal truth, not to find in equality of nature.
Where in space are all human truths other than in stored habits?

Its all made up muppet show in the head.

http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/inde ... bryology-1
muni
 
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby odysseus » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:20 am

Malcolm wrote:In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.



odysseus wrote:Sure, but this does´t mean that plants etc. are sentient. It means that there is no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness.


Malcolm wrote:It means that everything is the state of wisdom (jñāna) right from the beginning.


Looks like both meanings are valid, no discrepancy. :buddha2:
Buddha is best on Earth!
My lord is best...
User avatar
odysseus
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:55 pm

odysseus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:In some higher Dzogchen texts, it is suggested that even a division of sentient vs. non-sentient is merely conventional and not actual, not to be believed.



odysseus wrote:Sure, but this does´t mean that plants etc. are sentient. It means that there is no duality between sentience and non-sentience as one realizes emptiness.


Malcolm wrote:It means that everything is the state of wisdom (jñāna) right from the beginning.


Looks like both meanings are valid, no discrepancy. :buddha2:


If you emphasize the emptiness aspect, you will err into annihilation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11741
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Exploring Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

>