Then view the empty nature of duality-subject/object. Linjii's stick again.Gwenn Dana wrote:
The process of observing, when an observer is observing something which is observed, and is aware of the observation (i.e. a subject/object-duality is being constructed upon the prior emerging "observation", where consciousness reflects back on itself (that produces that observer), and doing so is also perceived). It becomes a concept by abstraction (therefore the observing needs to be observed). There is no longer only sensual input, but you can call it "observation", no matter what it is that is being observed or who is observing it.
To bring it in order:
1. Consciuosness reflects back on itself, bringing forth a sense of being, you may call that "raw seeing".
2. That sense of being reflects back on itself, bringing forth an observation of that seeing. Creating a sense of subject/object duality along with it.
3. Observing subject/object dualities concepts can be created.
Difference between consciousness and the mind
- LastLegend
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Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Of course. Along those lines, everything that arises in ku is still ku. I won't disagree. It's just a play of the world. But nevertheless it seems to happen, it's ok that it happens. It can neither be right or wrong. But notions of right and wrong appear in it. They are still ku.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Gwenn Dana wrote:That's the way consciousness expresses itself in human beings...
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic - translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera © 1993 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Benares, in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers). There he addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five: "Bhikkhus." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this.
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'
"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...
"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...
"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."
"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...
"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...
"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...
"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."
"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'
"Any kind of feeling whatever...
"Any kind of perception whatever...
"Any kind of determination whatever...
"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'
"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"
That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.
Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
I don't know what you want to achieve, but you may as well argue with them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%AB ... tp%C4%81da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am sure you will find many opportunities to do so, if that is what you're up to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%AB ... tp%C4%81da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am sure you will find many opportunities to do so, if that is what you're up to.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Who exactly is observing these "subject/object dualities" ?Gwenn Dana wrote: 3. Observing subject/object dualities concepts can be created. ("I am <something>") comes into existence. Denothing <things> needs these concepts. (EDIT: You can then spawn the rest of the chain of dependent origionation upon that.)
Gwenn, you have a brain, and it obviously functions very well, correct?
Do you know for what reason you have this brain inside your skull?
I think you don't know what purpose it serves. You ignore the very obvious (brain) and speak about a mystical "self" which observes everything.
Gwenn, whom you believe to be "the self" ...is, actually, the ego.
Why do you continue to preach your guess-work doctrine, Gwenn ?
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
How should I know? All I can do on this forum is exchange concepts with you.garudha wrote:Who exactly is observing these "subject/object dualities" ?
I'd have to find myself first to confirm that there is one who can "have" it. Is the brain a prerequisite to that which is expressed in our conversation? It appears to be so.Gwenn, you have a brain, and it obviously functions very well, correct?
For no reason and not for no reason it appears to be there. But obviously there is something that gives rise to this kind of play of the world we're having here.Do you know for what reason you have this brain inside your skull?
Oh? So you can see your brain? Show me!I think you don't know what purpose it serves. You ignore the very obvious (brain) and speak about a mystical "self" which observes everything.
How would you happen to know what I believe, and furthermore, how would you know what I connect to a term or concept that you call "self"?Gwenn, what you believe is "the self" ...is, actually, your ego.
If I had to return this, I would say "what you appear to think about what I believe of a concept called "self" is apparently blurring your view."
Why do words that I write in a forum appear to you as preaching?Why do you continue to preach your guess-work doctrine, Gwenn ?
Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
1 Argghh. I look in the mirror -call me crazy- but I know there's a brain in there! FYI; there are people who have damaged brains, due to accidents etc, and their brain does not function as it "should".Gwenn Dana wrote:Oh? So you can see your brain? Show me!
How would you happen to know what I believe, and furthermore, how would you know what I connect to a term or concept that you call "self"?
Why do words that I write in a forum appear to you as preaching?
2 Because you stated it so many times and on this forum and you have published PDFs which I have saved on my computer. Wait;.. what you wrote is not what you believe ? --call me crazy, if you like, but I find that unlikely.
3
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Ah, there is a hint at the confusion.garudha wrote: Wait;.. what you wrote is not what you believe ? --call me crazy, if you like, but I find that unlikely.
How can what I wrote be what I believe, when one is writing and the other one is believing?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Gwenn Dana wrote:Ah, there is a hint at the confusion.garudha wrote: Wait;.. what you wrote is not what you believe ? --call me crazy, if you like, but I find that unlikely.
How can what I wrote be what I believe, when one is writing and the other one is believing?
Of course I spoke using language, which as you've stated, is fundamentally dualistic
Even though you delivered that so well you seem to have forgotten it already as you're putting forward the idea of there really being "two" separate beings.
The 'one who is writing' and the 'one who is believing' could be the same one, did you consider that ?
Are you asking how abstraction can be performed'? and how resultant beliefs might be formed.. Such abstraction and beliefs are born due to ignorance, Gwenn.
Last edited by garudha on Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Two separate happenings: writing, and believing.garudha wrote:Gwenn Dana wrote:Ah, there is a hint at the confusion.garudha wrote: Wait;.. what you wrote is not what you believe ? --call me crazy, if you like, but I find that unlikely.
How can what I wrote be what I believe, when one is writing and the other one is believing?
There's no confusion. You are the confused one because you now seem to be putting forward the idea of there being "two" separate beings.
And, yes. You're right. Two separate beings are expressed by those. One who is a writer and one who is a believer. Born in awareness of the respective act. And dying as it is over. And over that which is remembered as a lifetime karma seems to express as one who is aware.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
That would exactly be the act of an abstraction.garudha wrote: The 'one who is writing' and the 'one who is believing' could be the same one, did you consider that ?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
If one person says "the glass is half empty". another says "the glass is half full"... it does not mean there are two glasses.Gwenn Dana wrote: Two separate happenings: writing, and believing.
And, yes. You're right. Two separate beings are expressed by those. One who is a writer and one who is a believer. Born in awareness of the respective act. And dying as it is over. And over that which is remembered as a lifetime karma seems to express as one who is aware.
Likewise; If your ego goes into "I'm believing" mode one moment and then goes into "writing" mode the next moment; it does not mean you are two egoic entities.
ONE being is performing all this work AND that ONE being should NOT be confused with any type of SELF.
I must admit your lifetime of karma remembrance was very nearly well said but you ruined it by finished with "awareness". The word you're looking for is ignorance.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
There are two concepts of glass. The glass doesn't know it is a glass, and neither observer sees what the other one sees. So there are no glasses, but two concepts of it. Now you can say those concepts do not really "be". We can only, on conventional level, exchange about two acts of observing.garudha wrote: If one person says "the glass is half empty". another says "the glass is half full"... it does not mean there are two glasses.
Why do you seem so married to this "you are your ego" idea?Likewise; If your ego
Show me this thing that was enduring behind that all, that could "switch between modes". A soul it cannot be, you rejected that delusion a while ago. It does not lead anywhere to rename "soul" to "ego", but transfer all its concepts along with it. The ego is not enduring. It is born out of every instance of consciousness.... goes into "I'm believing" mode one moment and then goes into "writing" mode the next moment;
Who should this ONE be? Show it to meONE being is performing all this work AND that ONE being should NOT be confused with any type of SELF.
No. Ignorance conditions the karma-formations, not the other way round.I must admit your lifetime of karma remembrance was very nearly well said but you ruined it by finished with "awareness". The word you're looking for is ignorance.
Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Wrong. it's interdependent. That's how a child can be conceived by two existing beings. Your puritanical model has "ghosts" waiting to attach themselves to matter. I will not discuss such imaginative guess-work based upon wikipedia articles.Ignorance conditions the karma-formations, not the other way round
The Samdhinirmocana Sutra translated by John Powers would be worth reading imho.
Take a look in the mirror.Who should this ONE be? Show it to me
Last edited by garudha on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Even matter appears as concept in consciousness (although we can construct a mahayana/hinayana debate on this). All subsequent phenomena arise dependently.garudha wrote: Your puritanical model has "ghosts" waiting to attach themselves to matter.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Tell that to an animal who doesn't recognize itself in it. Is it dead?garudha wrote: Take a look in the mirror.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Eckhart Tolle speaks like that.Gwenn Dana wrote:Even matter appears as concept in consciousness (although we can construct a mahayana/hinayana debate on this). All subsequent phenomena arise dependently.garudha wrote: Your puritanical model has "ghosts" waiting to attach themselves to matter.
I thought about this carefully. I think there's two possible reasons for non-recognition:Gwenn Dana wrote:Tell that to an animal who doesn't recognize itself in it. Is it dead?garudha wrote: Take a look in the mirror.
1. the animal has simply not recognized itself.
2. the animal has recognized itself but then denies the image as true.
In the second instance the mind has become highly abstracted due to life's events. It thinks "this is not true", ala matrix, which is somewhat true. But this denial becomes a vexative belief, actually a hindrance, and madness ensues... or enlightenment.
Last edited by garudha on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Good for himgarudha wrote: Eckhart Tolle speaks like that.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
- LastLegend
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- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
I think you have gone mad, but I like you.garudha wrote:Eckhart Tolle speaks like that.Gwenn Dana wrote:Even matter appears as concept in consciousness (although we can construct a mahayana/hinayana debate on this). All subsequent phenomena arise dependently.garudha wrote: Your puritanical model has "ghosts" waiting to attach themselves to matter.
I thought about this carefully. I think there's two possible reasons for non-recognition:Gwenn Dana wrote:Tell that to an animal who doesn't recognize itself in it. Is it dead?garudha wrote: Take a look in the mirror.
1. the animal has simply not recognized itself.
2. the animal has recognized itself but then denies the image as true.
In the second instance the mind has become highly abstracted due to life's events. It thinks "this is not true", ala matrix, which is somewhat true. But this denial becomes a vexative belief, actually a hindrance, and madness ensues... or enlightenment.
Last edited by LastLegend on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
It might be dead... is there a heartbeat?Gwenn Dana wrote:Tell that to an animal who doesn't recognize itself in it. Is it dead?garudha wrote: Take a look in the mirror.