Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

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Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:33 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:06 pm

A very gratifying sutta, especially read with SN 22.55. The latter promises Non-return if one practises as such.

As for the clinging cautioned in MN 106, I think it's a Non-returner's residual clinging, probably the higher Fetter of Conceit. You can see that residue there in the "me" lingering in this modified Nihilist view. I wrote something on this view and the ariyan variant according to SN 22.55 in Robert's "No Self" thread.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:47 pm


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:55 pm

I would paraphrase it in this way:

Things which are might not have come to be, and in any event I might not have been born, so even though they are, they might not have been something I experienced.

Things end, inevitably, and therefore any experience I have will necessarily end as well.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:31 pm

Many thanks Dave.

Keep 'em coming, you other folks, if you are inclined...

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby vinasp » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi everyone,

Here is a simplified [edited] version of a part of SN 12.31

This may be a more detailed exposition of the same doctrine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"One sees that 'this has come into being.' Seeing that, one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being.

One sees that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing that, one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being.

One sees that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing that, one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.

"One sees that 'this has come into being.' Seeing that, one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from what has come into being.

One sees that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing that, one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from the nutriment by which it has come into being.

One sees that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing that, one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a person who has fathomed the Dhamma.

Link to the original version on ATI:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:43 pm


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:40 pm


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:54 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby vinasp » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:56 am

Hi Sam Vara,

Yes, the Ven. Nanavira quote explains the general principle of Dependent Cessation.

But SN 12.31 is more specific. It uses the word 'nutriment.' These are what sustain
a being. The particular nutriment here is probably 'mental volition.'

Mental volition leads to the mental action which creates the 'being' from moment to
moment.

The important thing is to see that this 'being' does not just exist by nature, but is
something which we are creating. The action of making it is something which we are doing.

If we stop doing it the 'being' vanishes.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:21 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:52 pm


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:03 pm


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby vinasp » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:58 am

Hi everyone,

Translation by Peter Masefield, PTS, The Udana, 1997.

"He for whom there might be mindfulness despatched to body continually present, viz.

"Were there not, there could not be for me" and
"There will not be, nor will there be for me"

as one progressively abiding therein, might, solely at the right time (37), cross
entanglement."

Note 37. Kaalen' eva; taken by Woodward (V of U 94) and Ireland (p 105) as "in time",
but Ud-a clearly takes this to mean the moment of the arising of the ariyan path and,
with it, arahantship.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby plwk » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:11 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:27 am

Here is John Ireland's translation of the verse:

He for whom mindfulness of the body
Is always constantly established thus:
"If there had not been there would not be for me;
There will not be, and there will not be for me," [*]
If he dwells upon that in graded steps
In time he will pass beyond attachment.


[*] This cryptic saying can be paraphrased with the help of the Commentary thus:
"If there had not been" impure deeds (kilesa-kamma) that I had done in the past, then "there would not be for me" now, in this life, the experiences of their ripening (vipaka). And since "there will not be" any impure deeds when he is an arahant, so "there will not be" anything to ripen in the future.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:12 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:39 am


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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby Sylvester » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:55 am

Quite the opposite Daniel. The Nihilist version uses bhavissāmi (I will not be), while the Ariyan version uses bhavissati (it will not be). The Nihilist labours under the view that an "I" (1st person singular) will be destroyed, while the Ariyan views it in the impersonal 3rd person singular.

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Re: Ud 7.8: Kaccāyana Sutta

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:32 pm



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