Alaya consciousness - many questions.

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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby TrimePema » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:27 pm

:good: :thanks:
:bow: :bow: :bow:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby smcj » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:04 pm

Adamantine wrote:From an interview with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche via the Chronicles Project:

This basic ground does not depend on relative situations at all. It is natural being which just is. Energies appear out of this basic ground and those energies are the source of the development of relative situations. Sparks of duality, intensity and sharpness, flashes of wisdom and knowledge—all sorts of things come out of the basic ground. So the basic ground is the source of confusion and also the source of liberation. . . .
(formatting mine)


This is why I say there is a panentheistic paradigm to the enlightened state. That drives Malcolm crazy I know, but it is an issue of semantics, and it does seem an appropriate use of the term.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby tellyontellyon » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:34 pm

And sorry telly if I seem to be hijacking your thread. I hope my questions are helping you too.
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That's fine, I'm interested in all of this and the thread is for everybody. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:55 pm

Punya wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Candrakirti accepts the ālayavijñāna. Tsongkhapa did not.


This is incorrect. Chandrakirti rejected the alayavijnana as it is is being used in this discussion.


What do you mean by 'as it is is being used in this discussion' cloudburst?
.
.

I mean in the context of Madhyamaka.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:56 pm

conebeckham wrote:Chandrakirti rejects Alayavijnana as storehouse of habitual tendencies, etc--even on a conventional level of seeming?


That's right.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Punya » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:35 am

There might not be an answer to this as Chandrakirti's job is essentially to refute but can you say in a nutshell what Chandrakirti's position is then?
Last edited by Punya on Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:42 am

cloudburst wrote: I mean in the context of Madhyamaka.

Isn't that the only context Chandrakirti writes in?
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:40 am

cloudburst wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Chandrakirti rejects Alayavijnana as storehouse of habitual tendencies, etc--even on a conventional level of seeming?


That's right.


Hmmm...
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:49 am

conebeckham wrote:
cloudburst wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Chandrakirti rejects Alayavijnana as storehouse of habitual tendencies, etc--even on a conventional level of seeming?

That's right.

Hmmm...

I only have a smattering if ignorance on the subject, but I thought the Alayavijnana was not accepted by either Tsongkhapa or Chandrakirti. Malcolm has different ideas but, as contrary to common understanding as many of his positions are, he usually has some good textual basis for them.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:14 am

cloudburst wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Candrakirti accepts the ālayavijñāna. Tsongkhapa did not.


This is incorrect. Chandrakirti rejected the alayavijnana as it is is being used in this discussion.


He rejected the yogacara interpretation, he did not however reject how it discussed in the Lanka, in fact he cites the Lanka in support of his interpretation...but didn't we alreafy have this discussion?
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:37 am

Malcolm wrote:He rejected the yogacara interpretation, he did not however reject how it discussed in the Lanka, in fact he cites the Lanka in support of his interpretation...but didn't we already have this discussion?

Ok, now you've got my interest. In order to save you time and effort, if you could direct those of us following this thread to wherever it has been discussed before, I think we'd all appreciate it.

I don't even know what the Lanka is.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Punya » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:48 am

I assume he means the Lankavatara sutra. And, yes, please do tell us Malcolm. I usually get lost in the big DW discussions but so far I'm actually following this one. :smile:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:34 am

I am sympathetic because I never read the aforementioned thread either, however, some of you really need to start learning to use the search engine: it took me 30 seconds to find it. . . http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6823
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby smcj » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:34 am

Well, thanks for the link anyway. It's over my head. I'm out of my league. :techproblem: It happens.

Thankfully I do not believe that my progress on the spiritual path is contingent on understanding this stuff. :meditate:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Punya » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:33 pm

Yep, too many rabbit holes and I agree that practice is the thing. Still it has been an interesting discussion and it has prompted me to get out a Chandrakirti commentary so that should me busy for a while. :coffee:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:16 pm

smcj wrote:Well, thanks for the link anyway. It's over my head. I'm out of my league. :techproblem: It happens.

Thankfully I do not believe that my progress on the spiritual path is contingent on understanding this stuff. :meditate:


Fundamentally speaking, the way Jayananda is understanding Chandrakirti is that the ālayavijñāna is the the consciousness that apprehends emptiness.
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Will » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:08 pm

From page 92 of Waldron:

It is in the Basic Section of the Yogacarabhumi (the Saptadakabhumika) that the
term alaya-vijñana seems to have been first used. In what Schmithausen takes to
be its initial occurrence, the alaya-vijñana is portrayed as a kind of basal consciousness
which persists uninterruptedly within the material sense-faculties
during the absorption of cessation (nirodha-samapatti). Within this form of consciousness
dwell, in the form of seeds, the causal conditions for manifest forms of
cognitive awareness to reappear upon emerging from that absorption. In its most
important terminological innovation, these modes of manifest cognitive awareness
are now collectively called forms of “arising,” or “manifesting [forms of ] cognitive
awareness” (pravrtti-vijñana), insofar as they intermittently arise or become
manifest in conjunction with their appropriate objects, and in contrast to the abiding,
uninterrupted stream of sentience newly called “alaya” vijñana.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:Well, thanks for the link anyway. It's over my head. I'm out of my league. :techproblem: It happens.

Thankfully I do not believe that my progress on the spiritual path is contingent on understanding this stuff. :meditate:


Fundamentally speaking, the way Jayananda is understanding Chandrakirti is that the ālayavijñāna is the the consciousness that apprehends emptiness.


Well, I'm thinking this is consonant with the presentations of the eight consciousnesses I've heard from my (mainly Kagyu) teachers....maybe. In effect, the karmic "seeds" which are said to "reside" in the Alayavijnana, are NOT the Alayavijnana itself.....and where else would they reside than in some sort of ultimately empty yet cognizent awareness? I have to think about this some more.

One thing I will say, though, is that I feel the Alayavijnana is an insight that is pyschological in nature--and something many meditators have discussed. Chandrakirti, of course, was a great meditator as well as a great Buddhist logician, but his "main thrust" was ontological, not psychological. Perhaps his position was bent on avoiding any reification of "mind" as a permanent entity, but I don't see this as invalidating the psychological relevance of a "conventional" Alayavijnana.

But hey, what do I know? :shrug:
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:36 pm

conebeckham wrote: In effect, the karmic "seeds" which are said to "reside" in the Alayavijnana, are NOT the Alayavijnana itself.....


In reality, there are two Yogacara interpretations it seems.

One: ālayavijñāna is a consciousness which retains seeds. This is the later interpretation.

Two: ālayavijñāna and the seeds are coterminous: exhausting the latter eliminates the former. This seems to be the position of Asanga in Mahāyāna Samgraha.

The Nyingma approach to this is that there really are not nine consciousness at all. Consciousness derives its name based on its function in a given operation.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Alaya consciousness - many questions.

Postby dude » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:41 pm

If there are not nine consciousnesses, what is there?
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