Enlightenment and then what?

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Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Snovid » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:55 pm

Do some texts say about what is happening with consciousness/mind which reaches liberation?

We are mind
there is no division between us and them
we are all one
one mind

I practiced
I am achieving realization
I am illumined
I liberate myself from samsara
(...I do not exist? :D )

I am beyond death and birth
I am the mind but does that mean at the moment of liberation I'm lonely?

It's just only my presence
there is anybody beside me/with me and my ilumination?

For example, Shakyamuni :)

He achieved enlightenment,he died and now what?
He sees us?
Or hears us?
Can respond to our requests?
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby invisiblediamond » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:22 pm

Snowid wrote:Do some texts say about what is happening with consciousness/mind which reaches liberation?

We are mind
there is no division between us and them
we are all one
one mind

I practiced
I am achieving realization
I am illumined
I liberate myself from samsara
(...I do not exist? :D )

I am beyond death and birth
I am the mind but does that mean at the moment of liberation I'm lonely?

It's just only my presence
there is anybody beside me/with me and my ilumination?

For example, Shakyamuni :)

He achieved enlightenment,he died and now what?
He sees us?
Or hears us?
Can respond to our requests?


No. Everything is karmic. If you have some strong connection to some old higher dharma friend, then you can easily have prayers answered. But the buddha-nature isn't a living being.
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:29 pm

there is no liberation when you are clinging to the notion or idea of an I or a self. also buddhism does not teach that we every person is the same, like there is not difference between us on relative level, and ultimate level. we are not one. that is one extreme. we are not one nor two. the middle. no one no two, the middle.

what is meant by that the buddhas have one mind, is that when you are a buddha yourself you have share the same mind with all the buddhas, the same realization, the same state. yet there are still individuals, buddhas and sentient beings.

and if you were at the moment of liberation, there wouldnt be the notion of i, so no you would not be lonely. there wouldnt be the deluded i thinking its lonely, its not liberation.

there is samantabhadra in liberation with you although it is non dual, also there are countless sentient beings everywhere, so are you ever really alone ?

if you become space itself, can you be alone in your liberated state?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:33 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
Snowid wrote:Do some texts say about what is happening with consciousness/mind which reaches liberation?

We are mind
there is no division between us and them
we are all one
one mind

I practiced
I am achieving realization
I am illumined
I liberate myself from samsara
(...I do not exist? :D )

I am beyond death and birth
I am the mind but does that mean at the moment of liberation I'm lonely?

It's just only my presence
there is anybody beside me/with me and my ilumination?

For example, Shakyamuni :)

He achieved enlightenment,he died and now what?
He sees us?
Or hears us?
Can respond to our requests?


No. Everything is karmic. If you have some strong connection to some old higher dharma friend, then you can easily have prayers answered. But the buddha-nature isn't a living being.



maybe buddha nature is not a living being... if the living being is not living fully in buddha nature consciously. But buddha nature is alive in living beings. transcending the notion of being and non being, thus seeing, we can understand buddha nature in a more realized way.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Snovid » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:56 pm

Hm...so,Shakyamuni received enlightenment while he lived
He was enlightened until his body was alive,then his body died and he ceased to be?




PS.what is Shes Po/Shiepa?

"This means being aware of something - and it defines the normal level of consciousness.
However, at the level of subtle may be no point of reference for consciousness.
This is analogous to the paradoxical state of "thinking without thinking".
This conceptual state of being conscious, free from some kind of thought or certain levels of thinking.
"Without thinking" does not mean the total absence of thought. " Dalai Lama
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:18 pm

buddha is beyond arising and cessation so you figure out what happens after you die if you are beyond arising and cessation.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby kirtu » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:21 pm

Snowid wrote:Do some texts say about what is happening with consciousness/mind which reaches liberation?


There are different levels of enlightenment and liberation. These follow two (or three or four) paths - Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen. The distinction between Hinayana and the other paths is purely motivation - does one seek liberation for oneself alone or does one seek liberation for all beings? The differences between the Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen paths are all method (how and what one applies to follow the path).

Since the actual difference between Hinayana and Mahayana (with Vajrayana and Dzogchen subsumed into Mahayana) is the motivation, one can follow the methods of the Mahayana paths and still get the Hinayana result of liberation for oneself if that is one's actual motivation.

On the Hinayana path, the emphasis is in defeating mental defilements. On the Mahayana path, the emphasis is developing the intention to attain Enlightenment for all beings and accumulating merit and wisdom.

There are different realizations (the results of the training) along the way.

We can gloss enlightenment as being the purification of the mind (except that isn't really correct and that's not all there is). Complete Enlightenment is the complete purification of all defilements (negativities) and the the complete development of all positive qualities and spiritual power.

For example, Shakyamuni :)

He achieved enlightenment,he died and now what?
He sees us?
Or hears us?
Can respond to our requests?


The Buddha's are said to respond to us constantly, non-referentially showering blessings. These are blocked by our lack of faith and karmic obscurations. So we have to get rid of a lack of faith and reduce (hopefully eliminate) our karmic obscurations. Thus Buddhists universally take refuge and near universally engage in some form of compassion and/or lovingkindness training.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:58 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:... the buddha-nature isn't a living being.

Are you a vajrayana practitioner?
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby dude » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:00 pm

In order to save living beings,

as an expedient means I appear to enter nirvana

but in truth I do not pass into extinction.

I am always here, preaching the Law.

- Lotus Sutra
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:02 pm

A famous cartoon by Gahan Wilson;
"Nothing happens next. This is it."
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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Snovid » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:51 am

I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Snovid » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:45 am

I know about what I forgot to write

I mean that if at the time of death we can not take anything with us
any thing or person,that mean we are alone.

we have only own consciousness or lack there of.

We also have visions
which are only ilusions
vision of a master is not a master.

On the other hand
since we and our master, are not separate one mind
reaching enlightenment at the time of death,we should experience an infinite number of minds
forming one whole.

Writing about Shakyamuni
I wanted to say that when he died he was surrounded by other beings
and when his body ceased to live he (his mind) was completely alone.

Provided that after the death of the body, there is something that allows us to experience existence, the presence of something.
If does not remain for us absolutely nothing
what is able to experience and react
then we are not alone because in general we do not exist.
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:49 am

Snowid wrote:I know about what I forgot to write

I mean that if at the time of death we can not take anything with us
any thing or person,that mean we are alone.

we have only own consciousness or lack there of.

We also have visions
which are only ilusions
vision of a master is not a master.

On the other hand
since we and our master, are not separate one mind
reaching enlightenment at the time of death,we should experience an infinite number of minds
forming one whole.

Writing about Shakyamuni
I wanted to say that when he died he was surrounded by other beings
and when his body ceased to live he (his mind) was completely alone.

Provided that after the death of the body, there is something that allows us to experience existence, the presence of something.
If does not remain for us absolutely nothing
what is able to experience and react
then we are not alone because in general we do not exist.


When You are enlightened You are beyond the limitations of space and time. This means You can unhindered communicate with Shakyamuni, and with other Buddhas, who can be immensely distant in terms of space and time. This is reality, it is not something "symbolic".

We do not exist independently of everything else, and neither are we nonexistent.
svaha
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:58 am

And you know this how Aemilius ?
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Vasana » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:11 pm

The Zen saying come's to mind > "Before Enlightenment ;chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment ;chop wood carry water."

And as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said. " Since there is no self, there is also no other."

After enlightenment, realizing there are no boundaries between all things and that Samsara and Nirvana are one and the same, it would make sense that such a being would emanate dharma in countless forms and ways across countless planes and planets in order to relieve the relative suffering of any sentient being that has not realized absolute conciousness and perceives such separation between it.

But even then, there is no "other" sentient beings to relieve the suffering of. So Who is really 'benefiting' who ? Non-self is not helping self when there is no self to help but still there is a movement between the absolute and the relative because the absolute encompasses the relative.

Nirvana encompasses Samsara and so even Samsara can be Nirvana in disguise.

(current understanding, open to suggestions)
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Martin007 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:38 pm

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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby seeker242 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:06 pm

Enlightenment and then what?


Then you let go of all the questions that reference "I, my, me, we, us" and go do the laundry. Or maybe take out the garbage. Or maybe give a hungry person some food, or maybe teach someone the dharma. Depends on the situation. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Snovid » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:17 pm

Enlightenment and then(after death) what? ;)
We have enlightenment when we are still alive.
With death ,our self is dead so,our enlightment also.

Or

our ture self still exist after death, and we are still enlightened.
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:48 pm

none of those options. you should realize emptiness, then you know what exists now. then life is life, life is death, death is life and death is death. they are just opposites. buddha taught the way beyond duality, right in the middle.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Enlightenment and then what?

Postby Jesse » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:06 pm

Snowid wrote:Enlightenment and then(after death) what? ;)
We have enlightenment when we are still alive.
With death ,our self is dead so,our enlightment also.

Or

our ture self still exist after death, and we are still enlightened.


Thats a question I've struggled with alot, enlightenment isn't something we have, it's something we are. Birth, and Death are illusory in many ways, and it takes alot of digging and really meditating on it to see it. Even after you see it, you will likely continue asking the question anyway, that's how deeply ingrained these illusions really are, and why people practice daily.
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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