Question

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Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:13 am

So in the realm of non-corporeal entities, how would you know whether they are perceived or created? Does it matter??
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Re: Question

Postby dude » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:46 pm

You would if you had supernatural powers.
No it doesn't matter, or actually you're better off not knowing, because supernatural powers do not lead to enlightenment. In fact they only lead to further illusions of thought and desire.
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Re: Question

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:So in the realm of non-corporeal entities, how would you know whether they are perceived or created? Does it matter??


The question is unclear. If you perceive them, then they are perceived.
They are just another form of existence.

"Does it matter" in what way?

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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:09 pm

If one way is the case we are attuning ourselves to the existence of a being that existed apart from our perception of it. In the other case, it is a useful projection created by our intent.
Does it matter?? My question is aimed at exploring the nature of the practice and our relationship to it.
Going back to the Noble Truths, I believe one can strip away the "structure" ,if that's the right word, and consider that the purpose is to benefit the individual and by extension others, rather than to establish dogma or a cosmology. Sorry, I'm not as educated as many of you. What I'm getting at, in simple terms, is that I see many of all "religions" who put the cart before the horse, IMO.
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Re: Question

Postby dude » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:45 pm

If I understand you correctly, that's right.
Practice is to reduce suffering and gain happiness for self and others in this world.
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Re: Question

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:46 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:If one way is the case we are attuning ourselves to the existence of a being that existed apart from our perception of it.


All sentient beings (or at least humans and some animals by inference) perceive other sentient beings as existing apart from our perception on them. We all perceive others as separate from ourselves. So if you perceive beings, they appear separate and in a sense self-existent (their existence doesn't seem to depend on our mind).

In the other case, it is a useful projection created by our intent.

Well before the Path of Seeing at least, everything that we perceive is a projection and is conceptual.

Going back to the Noble Truths, I believe one can strip away the "structure" ,if that's the right word, and consider that the purpose is to benefit the individual and by extension others, rather than to establish dogma or a cosmology.... What I'm getting at, in simple terms, is that I see many of all "religions" who put the cart before the horse, IMO.


Okay. I'm not really understanding what you are asking.

The 4NT's are Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching on the pervasiveness of suffering, it's cause (grasping caused by ignorance) and how to free oneself from suffering.

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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:18 am

"Question" is rhetorical. I'm exploring the Buddhism as a tool concept. I also believe it's possible that over 2600 years, much of the structure (?) of the various forms of the practice contain much cultural material, and to an extent dogma as well. Not saying this is bad, as not all beings are attracted to the same things, just that we should be aware.
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Re: Question

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:15 am

If one way is the case we are attuning ourselves to the existence of a being that existed apart from our perception of it.

In the lower tantras the deity is considered to be external. In the higher tantras it is considered (becomes?) not different than your own mind.

My analogy is a bottle of beer. It starts as something outside of your mind, but ends up merged with it!
In the other case, it is a useful projection created by our intent.

The visualization process initially utilizes your imagination. That's the samaya-sattva, which is just your imagination. Then the jnana-sattva, the wisdom deity, merges with your imagined one. So you definitely start with just your imagination.
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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:53 pm

The visualization process initially utilizes your imagination. That's the samaya-sattva, which is just your imagination. Then the jnana-sattva, the wisdom deity, merges with your imagined one. So you definitely start with just your imagination.

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Ok, look, I've had these teachings so this is not news that such a belief exists. OK? I am asserting that there could be no distinction between the "wisdom deity" and the result one's perfected and polished ability to visualize. If perfecting a visualization of a being which represents a higher attribute, such as compassion, and then believing that the being merges with oneself, and this produces the desired result of perfecting the compassionate nature of the practitioner, then the ultimate nature of that being , whether a wisdom deity or a creation of one's practice, is empty. In that sense this could be seen as a kind of self hypnosis. Such a view in no way diminishes the value of the practice.
So does the nature or lack thereof of one's self require input from an outside source to improve, or is perfection the responsibility of the practitioner?
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Re: Question

Postby theanarchist » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:38 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:So in the realm of non-corporeal entities, how would you know whether they are perceived or created? Does it matter??


A human of sufficient realisation will know how to distinguish between a true vision of something that lives beyond this earthly, material realm and a product of deluded hallucination.

Nobody can "create" a sentient being.

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:Ok, look, I've had these teachings so this is not news that such a belief exists. OK? I am asserting that there could be no distinction between the "wisdom deity" and the result one's perfected and polished ability to visualize. If perfecting a visualization of a being which represents a higher attribute, such as compassion, and then believing that the being merges with oneself, and this produces the desired result of perfecting the compassionate nature of the practitioner, then the ultimate nature of that being , whether a wisdom deity or a creation of one's practice, is empty. In that sense this could be seen as a kind of self hypnosis. Such a view in no way diminishes the value of the practice.
So does the nature or lack thereof of one's self require input from an outside source to improve, or is perfection the responsibility of the practitioner?



It's all self hypnosis in a way. Because the buddhas do not reside "somewhere" but not in another place. This visualisation process is skillful means, it is not in itself some kind of ultimate truth.
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Re: Question

Postby Adamantine » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:10 pm

Jigme, are you looking for a one-line type of answer or are you open to book recommendations?
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:07 pm

Actually neither. I'm sure we could agree that Buddhism has different approaches. I have opened this discussion to oppose theism and dogmatism in Buddhist practice.
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Re: Question

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:15 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:Actually neither. I'm sure we could agree that Buddhism has different approaches. I have opened this discussion to oppose theism and dogmatism in Buddhist practice.


Define "theism".

Define "dogmatism".
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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:19 pm

Sorry, but I believe the standard definitions are sufficient.
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Re: Question

Postby Jigme Tsultrim » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:32 pm

I would like individuals to think about dogmatism and theism in their own practice and beliefs.
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Re: Question

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:40 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote:Sorry, but I believe the standard definitions are sufficient.


theism:
noun
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.


I am a theist. Buddhadharma contains a whole pantheon of mundane and transcendent "gods". By the dictionary definition given above, Buddhadharma is theistic.

dogma |ˈdôgmə|
noun
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:


I am a dogmatic. I accept that the Buddha set forth a set of principles that are incontrovertibly true. By the dictionary definition given above, Buddhadharma is dogmatic.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: Question

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:32 pm

The expert faker becomes an actual expert, but he just actualizes the Buddha Nature right...I mean, the Sambogakaya is not a thing substantially seperate from oneself right?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Question

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:36 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:The expert faker becomes an actual expert, but he just actualizes the Buddha Nature right...I mean, the Sambogakaya is not a thing substantially seperate from oneself right?


It is both a part of oneself and not.

Each sentient beings has dharmakāya as their buddhanature from the start. When that is realized, then one can manifest the sambhogakāya and the nirmanakāya.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Question

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The expert faker becomes an actual expert, but he just actualizes the Buddha Nature right...I mean, the Sambogakaya is not a thing substantially seperate from oneself right?


It is both a part of oneself and not.

Each sentient beings has dharmakāya as their buddhanature from the start. When that is realized, then one can manifest the sambhogakāya and the nirmanakāya.



What is ones relationship to the sambogakaya prior to enlightenment then..i.e. for the purpose of the conversation, I guess what i'm asking is are Yidam etc. "the real thing" prior to this, or just our imagination on our side?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Question

Postby theanarchist » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Jigme Tsultrim wrote: I have opened this discussion to oppose theism and dogmatism in Buddhist practice.


As a generalisation of all buddhist practitioners?

I'm sure that there are practitioners who have a theistic and/or dogmatic approach to their practice. What does that say about "the" buddhism? Nothing. Because there is no such thing.

So if you want to talk about the theism or dogmatism in a specific person's practice, or a specific buddhist tradition, fine. But there is no "the" buddhist practice to which these assumptions could apply.

So it's a waste of time to talk about it.
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