BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:48 pm

Is the space an extra ingredient? Does the chef add space to it? Do you see space in the hole, or you see it through its edges?
How does the space appear if there is no object around? How do you perceive it then?
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:06 pm

oushi wrote:Is the space an extra ingredient? Does the chef add space to it? Do you see space in the hole, or you see it through its edges?
How does the space appear if there is no object around? How do you perceive it then?


In the case of a daonut, yes, the space is an extra ingredient,
because ingredient is a component in the arising of a composite thing, a donut.
Without space, there would be no hole.
"A donut without a hole is a danish"

If a hole is punched out (some donut machines do this)
then yes, space is added to it.

Yes, I see space in the hole, I see through the space,
and yes, i see the edges of the donut that frame that space.

If you are aware of space, you are perceiving it.

Space, sometimes referred to as negative space,
also plays a big part of a lot of modern sculpture.

What you are saying is that you are not aware of any space.
If you have no awareness of it, well, that's okay I guess.
But I wish you could perceive it. It's pretty awesome.
.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:33 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:If a hole is punched out (some donut machines do this)
then yes, space is added to it.

So there was no space there before? There was something without space? Interesting... If you dig a hole in the ground you add space to it? Or the space was already there but covered by earth? The answer is obvious, but beyond your reach it seems.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:Yes, I see space in the hole, I see through the space

You see space or through space? Decide.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:If you are aware of space, you are perceiving it.

How are you aware of space? Through objects. Without objects an idea of space does not exist.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:Space, sometimes referred to as negative space,
also plays a big part of a lot of modern sculpture.

God also... does it mean you can perceive him? No.

Question is simple: What is space and how do you perceive it, if there are no objects?
Can you answer already?
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:09 pm

oushi wrote:
Question is simple: What is space and how do you perceive it, if there are no objects?
Can you answer already?


I already answered that.
Just because one may need reference points to perceive space
does not mean that one cannot perceive it.

Just because one might need glasses in order to read a book
doesn't mean nothing is printed on the pages.

Aside from that,
awareness of space is sufficient.
.
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:12 pm

You are saying that without something conceptual occupying space,
no awareness of space is possible.
Right?
.
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:29 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
oushi wrote:
Aside from that,
awareness of space is sufficient.
.
.
.

If I am aware of the existence of black holes that means I perceive them?
If I am aware of atoms then it means that I perceive them?
Bollocks.
Such thinking lies in the core of delusion. People believe in things they never even saw. From the small details to giant misconceptions, delusions are carried by generations. People are conditioned to take things at face value and then defend them at all costs.
Actually, karma and rebirth is not different. No one here holds anything more then a belief about it.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:09 pm

If you don't accept karma and rebirth, how can you call yourself a Buddhist?
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:13 pm

This passage from Conze's "Buddhist Thought In India", while not really addressing the OP, is close to my own thinking about karma and rebirth:
As a virtue, faith is strengthened and built up by self-discipline, and not by discussing opinions. For among the obstacles to faith intellectual difficulties are not by any means the most powerful. It is a matter of character how the inescapable doubts are tackled. The first of the four 'articles of faith' may illustrate the situation. The factual evidence for karma and rebirth appears imposing to some, and quite negligible to others. In any case it is scientifically inconclusive. The doctrine contains two fairly unverifiable statements; it claims (1) that behind the natural causality which links events in the world of sense there are other, invisible, chains of a moral causality which ensures that all good acts are rewarded, all bad actions punished; and (2) that this chain of moral sequences is not interrupted by death, but continues from one life to another. However plausible or implausible these two assumptions may seem, they become a matter of direct experience only to someone who has acquired two superknowledges (abhijñā), i.e. the recollections of his own previous rebirths, and of those of others. Without possessing those two superknowledges, no one can claim to know rebirth to be true. If he believes it, he takes it largely on faith. And this faith is effectively preserved less by dialectical skill than by the bold and courageous willingness to take risks. Life nowhere offers complete security. Employed in gaining wealth, a merchant must risk his property. Employed in taking life, a soldier must risk his own life. Employed in saving his soul, the spiritual man must risk his own soul. The stake automatically increases with the prospect of gain. Our beliefs may well be all wrong, but we must just take the consequences, and hope that our fund of audacity and good humour will not run out.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:27 pm

For me, the factual evidence came first and the intellectual reasoning took a while.
I didn't believe in anything I don't see proof of.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby smcj » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:17 pm

And this faith is effectively preserved less by dialectical skill than by the bold and courageous willingness to take risks. Life nowhere offers complete security. Employed in gaining wealth, a merchant must risk his property. Employed in taking life, a soldier must risk his own life. Employed in saving his soul, the spiritual man must risk his own soul. The stake automatically increases with the prospect of gain. Our beliefs may well be all wrong, but we must just take the consequences, and hope that our fund of audacity and good humour will not run out.

Nice little piece of writing that, and not without merit.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:28 pm

Sounds to me like blind faith.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby smcj » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:29 pm

Sounds to me like an open mind.

In college I had some friends that were math geeks. Evidently in post-graduate math they can do things like prove that 2+2=4. Before you get to that point in math the validity of addition is 'taken on faith'. In theory one could be taught a completely self-rigorous prove-it-as-you-go math, starting with set theory and logic, but 7 year olds aren't up to that kind of thing.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:37 pm

ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:40 pm

smcj wrote:In theory one could be taught a completely self-rigorous prove-it-as-you-go math, starting with set theory and logic, but 7 year olds aren't up to that kind of thing.

Well, how do you prove set theory and logic?

:smile:
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:55 pm

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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:02 am

smcj wrote:Sounds to me like an open mind.

In college I had some friends that were math geeks. Evidently in post-graduate math they can do things like prove that 2+2=4. Before you get to that point in math the validity of addition is 'taken on faith'. In theory one could be taught a completely self-rigorous prove-it-as-you-go math, starting with set theory and logic, but 7 year olds aren't up to that kind of thing.


Without having an open mind, I would never have tested it, and I didn't for some time after hearing about it.
Without proof, I wouldn't have continued.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:14 am

dude wrote:


Your point being?

Nothing whatsoever.

:smile:
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby dude » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:25 am

I suspect you wanted me to read the section about faith, or maybe you're just making the essay from which you quoted available to me, for which I thank you. It's good.
I have no way of knowing, and my question was sincere.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:58 am

oushi wrote:
If I am aware of the existence of black holes that means I perceive them?
If I am aware of atoms then it means that I perceive them?
Bollocks.
Such thinking lies in the core of delusion. People believe in things they never even saw. From the small details to giant misconceptions, delusions are carried by generations. People are conditioned to take things at face value and then defend them at all costs.
Actually, karma and rebirth is not different. No one here holds anything more then a belief about it.


That is not a logical argument.
Conversely, going back to the donut example,
The donut hole is solidly packed with nitrogen and oxygen atoms, among other things.
yet, I cannot see them.
But I can see the space they occupy
as it contrasts with the space occupied by the cooked dough.
I perceive space, and I perceive it filled with things I can see, hear, touch, taste and smell,
and things I cannot see, hear, touch, taste and smell.

As for karma and rebirth being merely a belief,
If you assert some kind of inherently existing, ongoing self, then that is true.
But Buddhism rejects that.
Every part of the baby you were born as is dead.
Yet, a series of cognitive events has continued,
presenting the appearance of a continuous self
and here you are today. Voila!
That is the essence of rebirth.
What you are today is the result of the past actions of your body speech and mind.
That is karma.

You have merely opted not to believe it,
as you have opted not to believe in awareness of space.

It's really funny!
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: BASIS FOR KARMA / REBIRTH

Postby futerko » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:13 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I perceive... things I cannot see, hear, touch, taste and smell.


huh? :thinking:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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