Desire

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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:02 am

Tenzin Dorje wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Tenzin Dorje wrote:Good questions. I would tend to make something of kirtu's division into : (1) arya Bodhisattvas, and (2) ordinary ones.
I explicitly referred to Arya and non-Arya Bodhisattvas in my posting.

You did indeed, and this is what I meant. :smile:


Sorry - my eyesight is pretty bad and I misread it.

Tenzin Dorje wrote:
kirtu wrote:No, they would not have necessarily actually matured Shantideva's teachings on this. Taking and seriously holding the Bodhisattva Vows as an intention is sufficient.

Bodhisattva on the Mahayana path would necessarily have the uncontrived bodhicitta, whether aspiring or engaging, because uncontrived bodhicitta is the entry gate to the Mahayana path.


A Bodisattva on the Mahayana path doesn't necessarily have to have generated uncontrived bodhicitta. In the beginning most people can't generate uncontrived wishing bodhicitta because they don't have a good idea of what that means. I would venture that all bodhicitta raised on the Path of Accumulation is probably contrived (until the end).

Nonetheless people can have entered the Mahayana path because their inclination or intention will develop more fully in that direction and they intellectually at least wish to liberate all beings.

Perhaps this is a matter of understanding Gelug terminology?

Tenzin Dorje wrote:Furthermore, Bodhisattvas don't necessarily hold the Bodhisattva vows, because it is necessarily (to hold these vows) only for those who generated the ucontrived engaging bodhicitta, not the aspiring one. (cf. Lam Rim Chen Mo)


I'll have to look this up in the Lamrim Chenmo. It seems quite a bit to require sentient beings wishing to practice the Mahayana to first generate uncontrived bodhicitta before they have entered the path.

Tenzin Dorje wrote:Your posting makes me think that you referred to Bodhisattvas that are not on the Mahayana path. Is it the case ?


Nope.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:09 am

reddust wrote:If one drops all desire, how does one move in the Desire Realm? I've had this question for a long time. I am still full of desire, I notice every little thing I do is powered by some kind of desire, that's why I am asking. I figured maybe Bodhisattvas move using subtle desires, like the pāramitās.


Furthermore on the path of tantra one uses desire to attain enlightenment. In Highest Yoga Tantra and Dzogchen one recognizes desires as the display of wisdom.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: Desire

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:14 am

Desire to me means something else than merely wishing for good things to happen. I wish that all the time. For instance, when there is a disaster, say an earthquake, there is also a wish that those people effected by that earthquake will get out safe and unharmed. It's just when some of the different possible outcomes become unbearable, that there is a desire, or a craving. When bad outcomes effect me to the point of not being able to function or live with myself, the wish becomes a craving and it becomes unwholesome. But there is nothing unwholesome about the wish for people to live well; that wish is the reason why people help each other, why we do charity. Without it we would be a bunch of uncaring bastards.
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Re: Desire

Postby kirtu » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:21 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote: But there is nothing unwholesome about the wish for people to live well; that wish is the reason why people help each other, why we do charity. Without it we would be a bunch of uncaring bastards.


How's history unfolding? Been to the US lately? How about Greece or Spain? We can easily pick places and times where this is demonstrated historically. We don't even have to drop to a subtle, personal level.

As Shantideva says in his first chapter, people rarely generate positive thoughts, and when they do generate them, these are the result of the blessings of the Buddhas.

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Desire

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:36 am

kirtu wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote: But there is nothing unwholesome about the wish for people to live well; that wish is the reason why people help each other, why we do charity. Without it we would be a bunch of uncaring bastards.


How's history unfolding? Been to the US lately? How about Greece or Spain? We can easily pick places and times where this is demonstrated historically. We don't even have to drop to a subtle, personal level.

As Shantideva says in his first chapter, people rarely generate positive thoughts, and when they do generate them, these are the result of the blessings of the Buddhas.

Kirt


Yeah, bad stuff happens, often caused by selfish desire. All the more reason to wish for goods things.

But "people rarely generate positive thoughts"? That' s a very bleak picture you're painting, I strongly disagree with that. People are wonderful, except for a few miserable cretins.
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Re: Desire

Postby dude » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:15 am

Exactly right. SELFISH desire is what causes suffering.
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Re: Desire

Postby duckfiasco » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:42 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Desire to me means something else than merely wishing for good things to happen. I wish that all the time. For instance, when there is a disaster, say an earthquake, there is also a wish that those people effected by that earthquake will get out safe and unharmed. It's just when some of the different possible outcomes become unbearable, that there is a desire, or a craving. When bad outcomes effect me to the point of not being able to function or live with myself, the wish becomes a craving and it becomes unwholesome. But there is nothing unwholesome about the wish for people to live well; that wish is the reason why people help each other, why we do charity. Without it we would be a bunch of uncaring bastards.

I think desire is a technical word that ends up absorbing English meanings that aren't implied when used in a Buddhist context.
What you call desire here others might call compassion or the simple benevolence towards others that characterizes the Dharma, e.g. the paramitas.
Is desire at the root of the paramitas?
It might be helpful to keep in mind the craving sense of desire.
So the question becomes is craving necessarily at the root of everything?
How can a person without craving even move?
If something is uncomfortable, will a person without craving just sit there?

When defilements are absent, for example in feeling "desire" or motivation to help in the face of suffering, it's no longer the red-hot iron ball that desire is often described as, is it?
Please take the above post with a grain of salt.
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Re: Desire

Postby greentara » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:01 am

Lindama, "true bodhisattva does not plan how to help, it just happens. I call that selfless service. It has a diff feel from do-gooding which involves desire"
Thanks thats a clear explanation. When there's no separate individual and no agenda...life unfolds naturally.
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:08 am

I should of done this at the beginning my apologies, I am so out of practice:

Kleshas (Sanskrit, also kleśa; Pali: kilesa; Tibetan: nyon mongs), in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, destructive emotions, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, mind poisons, etc. from wiki…

Pāramitā (Pāli; Sanskrit; Devanagari: पारमिता) or pāramī (Pāli) is "perfection" or "completeness. In Buddhism, the pāramitās refer to the perfection or culmination of certain virtues. In Buddhism, these virtues are cultivated as a way of purification, purifying karma and helping the aspirant to live an unobstructed life, while reaching the goal of enlightenment……

http://www.bodhicitta.net/Six%20Perfections.htm(I really like this description)

I read the virtues are still a very subtle desires. I wondered is this is the energy that moves Buddha and high Bodhisattvas? You have to have some desire to move in the desire realms right? Because when I look at what powers my actions, what gets me out of bed, everything I do, the energy is pretty gross. I need to get some coffee, go pee, feed the chickens, take my dog out so she won't pee on the carpet and whine. I am not thinking about helping anyone like the perfections.
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Re: Desire

Postby catmoon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:26 am

Why did the Buddha teach? If you can answer this. you can answer the OPQ
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:35 am

catmoon wrote:Why did the Buddha teach? If you can answer this. you can answer the OPQ

The lay person all the way up to the high end Bodhisattva experiences the desire to end suffering of sentient beings and once he becomes Buddha he still is moved by that desire or has this desire no longer needed? Or maybe I am just complicating something that is really simple? Maybe I am just being stubborn, maybe I need some books to read up on this?
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Re: Desire

Postby catmoon » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:39 am

reddust wrote:
catmoon wrote:Why did the Buddha teach? If you can answer this. you can answer the OPQ

The lay person all the way up to the high end Bodhisattva experiences the desire to end suffering of sentient beings and once he becomes Buddha he still is moved by that desire or has this desire no longer needed? Or maybe I am just complicating something that is really simple? Maybe I am just being stubborn, maybe I need some books to read up on this?


You're close, I think. The idea is that there are two kinds of desires. Some involve attachment and some do not. It's really the attachments you want to go after, not the desires themselves.

The attachment test is simple: if your desire is thwarted, will you be frustrated and angry?
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:41 am

catmoon wrote:
reddust wrote:
catmoon wrote:Why did the Buddha teach? If you can answer this. you can answer the OPQ

The lay person all the way up to the high end Bodhisattva experiences the desire to end suffering of sentient beings and once he becomes Buddha he still is moved by that desire or has this desire no longer needed? Or maybe I am just complicating something that is really simple? Maybe I am just being stubborn, maybe I need some books to read up on this?


You're close, I think. The idea is that there are two kinds of desires. Some involve attachment and some do not. It's really the attachments you want to go after, not the desires themselves.

The attachment test is simple: if your desire is thwarted, will you be frustrated and angry?


That is way too easy :heart: Thank you :D
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Re: Desire

Postby Lindama » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:03 am

I've been meditating on desire today although it seems equally relevant for any of the kleshas, and the virtues as well. I won't list them all, actually don't know enough. So when I use the word desire, It seems equally relevant to all of them. Obviously, they all have their particular flavor and texture, and applications. Depending on the karma, we carry them to diff degrees.

Desire is a strategy to prove that I exist. There are many strategies involving the kleshas and the virtues as well. Many of them are subtle. Desire, for example, can manifest as the pursuit of financial, social or political power all the way to the subtlety of wanting to look good when I bow. I can release, purify and cultivate any one only to have the need for existence appear as another strategy. This seems the work of the Bodhisattva. Many good works can come of this, but there is the one who exists, however subtle. To take it a step further, desire (et al) starts to look like a trojan horse, so it serves the dream ... I dunno, we also need to become conscious about this, or do we. Yet, addressing my existential dread seems to cut to the core.

In my limited understanding of Bodhicitta, this is, to use the original image in the OP, the stream that goes where it will. Bodhisattva and Bodhicitta are not necessarily interchangeable as I was taught. Bodhicitta has gone beyond self-consciousness. Strategies in this realm are irrelevant and non-existent. Compassion and wisdom abound naturally. There is no separate self, it is in the natural flow of life. I'm not qualified to say much more, if anything, but I think some people might call this Buddha, Arhat or Awakened.

anybody comment on this??
Last edited by Lindama on Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:13 am

More details for the lurkers, I am not qualified to answer questions but I really like to look things up: Taṇhā (Pāli; Sanskrit: tṛṣṇā, also trishna) is a Buddhist term that literally means "thirst," and is commonly translated as craving or desire. Within Buddhism, taṇhā is defined as the craving or desire to hold onto pleasurable experiences, to be separated from painful or unpleasant experiences, and for neutral experiences or feelings not to decline. In the first teaching of the Buddha on the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha identified taṇhā as a principal cause in the arising of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, dissatisfaction). Taṇhā is also identified as the eighth link in the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination. (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s04.htm)…..(http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise4.htm) :heart: Wow…I feel so much better :twothumbsup:
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Re: Desire

Postby futerko » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:21 am

Lindama wrote:Desire is a strategy to prove that I exist. There are many strategies involving the kleshas and the virtues as well. Many of them are subtle. Desire, for example, can manifest as the pursuit of financial, social or political power all the way to the subtlety of wanting to look good when I bow. I can release, purify and cultivate any one only to have the need for existence appear as another strategy. This seems the work of the Bodhisattva. Many good works can come of this, but there is the one who exists, however subtle. To take it a step further, desire (et al) starts to look like a trojan horse, so it serves the dream ... I dunno, we also need to become conscious about this, or do we. Yet, addressing my existential dread seems to cut to the core.


:good:

I like this formulation. I think that with the Trojan horse image, we have to ask what the Greeks represent. Maybe it is more about looking for external recognition of existence rather than facing it squarely without external support, after all, what is the cause of the existential dread in the first place?

@ reddust - thanks for sharing your story (my memories of e-sangha are hazy at best).
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Re: Desire

Postby reddust » Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:57 am

futerko wrote:
Lindama wrote:Desire is a strategy to prove that I exist. There are many strategies involving the kleshas and the virtues as well. Many of them are subtle. Desire, for example, can manifest as the pursuit of financial, social or political power all the way to the subtlety of wanting to look good when I bow. I can release, purify and cultivate any one only to have the need for existence appear as another strategy. This seems the work of the Bodhisattva. Many good works can come of this, but there is the one who exists, however subtle. To take it a step further, desire (et al) starts to look like a trojan horse, so it serves the dream ... I dunno, we also need to become conscious about this, or do we. Yet, addressing my existential dread seems to cut to the core.


:good:

I like this formulation. I think that with the Trojan horse image, we have to ask what the Greeks represent. Maybe it is more about looking for external recognition of existence rather than facing it squarely without external support, after all, what is the cause of the existential dread in the first place?

@ reddust - thanks for sharing your story (my memories of e-sangha are hazy at best).


You are welcome and this is an excellent formula.
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