Isn't Karma extrapolation?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Paul
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by Paul »

dharmagoat wrote: Considering body and mind to be different aspects of the same thing, while avoiding both materialist and idealist conclusions, seems to make the most sense.
What would you say the 'same thing' is?
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the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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dharmagoat
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by dharmagoat »

Paul wrote:
dharmagoat wrote: Considering body and mind to be different aspects of the same thing, while avoiding both materialist and idealist conclusions, seems to make the most sense.
What would you say the 'same thing' is?
The thing that it is observed to be. No more, no less.
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Paul
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by Paul »

dharmagoat wrote:
Paul wrote:
dharmagoat wrote: Considering body and mind to be different aspects of the same thing, while avoiding both materialist and idealist conclusions, seems to make the most sense.
What would you say the 'same thing' is?
The thing that it is observed to be. No more, no less.
Can you extrapolate? Especially from an ontological POV.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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dharmagoat
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by dharmagoat »

Paul wrote:Can you extrapolate? Especially from an ontological POV.
I could make an attempt, but it would never be more than an attempt. Some things elude analysis, and I am a reluctant philosopher.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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futerko
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by futerko »

Paul wrote:
futerko wrote:what I mean is that when you say "mere cause and effect," what you mean is material causality rather than the idea of causality within a mental continuum.
Well the issue for me is proving that rather than having simply an effect a cause has the kind of relation with an effect that the Buddhist view claims it does. Specifically, that an action with a positive intent has a pleasant result and that an action with a negative intent has a unpleasant result either in this life or a future life. I think this is what the initial post and some of the arguments by Alfredo have been getting at.
Oh I see, yes, I agree that a simplistic model of causality is clearly... erm, simplistic, but I wouldn't go as far to say that Suzuki's pre-war model is wrong as such. The morality of intentional actions seems to apply on a gross behavioural level, but on more subtle levels it would still seem to carry some insight.
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Paul
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

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futerko wrote:
Paul wrote:
futerko wrote:what I mean is that when you say "mere cause and effect," what you mean is material causality rather than the idea of causality within a mental continuum.
Well the issue for me is proving that rather than having simply an effect a cause has the kind of relation with an effect that the Buddhist view claims it does. Specifically, that an action with a positive intent has a pleasant result and that an action with a negative intent has a unpleasant result either in this life or a future life. I think this is what the initial post and some of the arguments by Alfredo have been getting at.
Oh I see, yes, I agree that a simplistic model of causality is clearly... erm, simplistic, but I wouldn't go as far to say that Suzuki's pre-war model is wrong as such. The morality of intentional actions seems to apply on a gross behavioural level, but on more subtle levels it would still seem to carry some insight.
There is certainly some insight. I certainly believe (on basically a faith level) that there will be some possibly synchronistic relation between present intentions & actions and future experience. But if I try and prove this, or take a cold hard look at the philosophical basis of the Buddhist view of karma I'm not intellectually convinced by the explanations.

However weird things I have experienced override any kind of rationality. And anyway, the Buddha said karma was incredibly hard to penetrate.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Wayfarer
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

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It's obvious on one level, but obscure on another. But as a common-sense attitude to life, it is the only sound basis for an ethical philosophy IMO. Apart from anything else, it makes you responsible for what happens. (Actually that reminds me of an Alan Watts aphorism 'Ultimately there is no difference between what you do and what happens to you'.)
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Grigoris
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by Grigoris »

Paul wrote:Well the issue for me is proving that rather than having simply an effect a cause has the kind of relation with an effect that the Buddhist view claims it does. Specifically, that an action with a positive intent has a pleasant result and that an action with a negative intent has a unpleasant result either in this life or a future life. I think this is what the initial post and some of the arguments by Alfredo have been getting at.
Thing is though, that the Buddha didn't always teach this one-to-one relationship between positive actions and positive effects. I recommend you take a look at the Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta: The Great Exposition of Kamma.
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Luke
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by Luke »

jeeprs wrote:Throwing a stone at someone generates karma.

Dropping a stone in a pond generates ripples.

Ripples are an analogy for karma, but they're not karma.
Well, the lama I used to learn from had the view that everything is karma! To him, even the fact that the sun is shining is karma! hehe
I never quite understood his view correctly, but it just goes to show that there are many different Buddhist ideas about the scope of karma.

The different Buddhist views about karma would make a fascinating thread, if there isn't one like this already...
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dharmagoat
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by dharmagoat »

Luke wrote:
jeeprs wrote:Throwing a stone at someone generates karma.

Dropping a stone in a pond generates ripples.

Ripples are an analogy for karma, but they're not karma.
Well, the lama I used to learn from had the view that everything is karma! To him, even the fact that the sun is shining is karma! hehe
I never quite understood his view correctly, but it just goes to show that there are many different Buddhist ideas about the scope of karma.

The different Buddhist views about karma would make a fascinating thread, if there isn't one like this already...
Well, if it is believed that everything in the universe is a creation of mind (which is one hypothesis), then it follows that all phenomena are the playing out of karma.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

pulled this off of facebook this morning...
EMPTIFUL.
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futerko
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by futerko »

PadmaVonSamba wrote:pulled this off of facebook this morning...
:rolling:

Beautiful!
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Post by catmoon »

Lol I almost missed it. Good one.
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