Isn't Karma extrapolation?

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Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Panegalli » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:32 pm

I agree that Karma can have results in an somewhat immediate way, for exemple: if I treat person A badly, A might treat me badly as a result, or tell someone that I treat people badly, increasing my probability of me not to be treated so well by people that listened to A. But to say that this action can have a result somewhere far away in space and far posterior in time, where noone knows me or A, seems to me to be extrapolating, not that something bad will not eventually happen to me, but I can't understand how can that something can be a result of my actions towards A. This would only make sense if the consequences of Karma are in my mind, if this actions create habits that will contribute to the sort of immediate consequences that I described in the beginning of the post.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby duckfiasco » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:44 pm

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63


Where do you find intention?
Namu Amida Butsu
The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
- Sengcan (tr. Suzuki)
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:48 pm

Yes, Karma is determined by inference since you can't see but a small portion of it's workings. like any natural law, you have some examples, but cannot see most instances of it's operation.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby smcj » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:03 pm

Actually that's how I came to believe it. I can see a little in this life, like you said, but what about the left-overs? Obviously there are evil people that don't get their just deserts in this life. And also obviously there are small children born behind the 8 ball from the start.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby tatpurusa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:58 pm

Panegalli wrote:I agree that Karma can have results in an somewhat immediate way, for exemple: if I treat person A badly, A might treat me badly as a result, or tell someone that I treat people badly, increasing my probability of me not to be treated so well by people that listened to A. But to say that this action can have a result somewhere far away in space and far posterior in time, where noone knows me or A, seems to me to be extrapolating, not that something bad will not eventually happen to me, but I can't understand how can that something can be a result of my actions towards A. This would only make sense if the consequences of Karma are in my mind, if this actions create habits that will contribute to the sort of immediate consequences that I described in the beginning of the post.


Karma is not an outside force.

It is what you (erroneously) think you are. It is the vast amount of imprints stored within the alaya, originating from whatever you have experienced, felt, thought and done all over your existence(s).
The immediate reaction of someone you insult is not karma. Karma means, that it is impossible to experience, think, feel, do anything without
it leaving traces behind within you; without these impressions changing and forming you (unless you are enlightened and fully aware that the "actor" itself is also just an illusion, a concept, an ever changing result of mental processes and karma without inherent reality).

Karma is our character as we know (or not know) it, including all our conscious and unconscious habits, inclinations and qualities.
It is impossible (as long as one is not enlightened) to do, think, feel anything without being influenced, or dominated by this force of our own character. This is what determines how one reacts in any situation, and through this what we encounter in the present and future.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby hop.pala » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:07 pm

You can it see maybe simpler way.
" if I treat person A badly, A might treat me badly as a result,"
And learned nothing.I say it for the example.What is in your mind?The sanskara for :" I treat person A badly".It is still in your mind,and because not learned by appropriate conditions do it again,and must suffer again the consequence.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:18 pm

Panegalli wrote:I agree that Karma can have results in an somewhat immediate way, for exemple: if I treat person A badly, A might treat me badly as a result, or tell someone that I treat people badly, increasing my probability of me not to be treated so well by people that listened to A. But to say that this action can have a result somewhere far away in space and far posterior in time, where noone knows me or A, seems to me to be extrapolating, not that something bad will not eventually happen to me, but I can't understand how can that something can be a result of my actions towards A. This would only make sense if the consequences of Karma are in my mind, if this actions create habits that will contribute to the sort of immediate consequences that I described in the beginning of the post.
So if you skip classes at high school to hang out and do drugs with your friends it won't impact on your life when you are 70 years old when you may even be living on another continent? Or maybe are you talking about future lives? As for karmic consequences being in the mind, where else could they possibly be? Even all our physical sensations are experieneced via mind so...
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:03 pm

Karma...cause and effect is apple tree will bear apples and apple will bear apple trees.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby dude » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:16 pm

smcj wrote:Actually that's how I came to believe it. I can see a little in this life, like you said, but what about the left-overs? Obviously there are evil people that don't get their just deserts in this life. And also obviously there are small children born behind the 8 ball from the start.


Past, present and future. Everybody gets what they deserve.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:19 pm

Deserve? Where does the Buddha use the term "deserve" in reference to karma?
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby KeithBC » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:20 pm

Panegalli wrote:This would only make sense if the consequences of Karma are in my mind, if this actions create habits that will contribute to the sort of immediate consequences that I described in the beginning of the post.

That is indeed how it works. Karma is all in your mind. Your actions create habits that produce consequences.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby dude » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:44 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Deserve? Where does the Buddha use the term "deserve" in reference to karma?


You're right, and I was wrong to put it that way.
Buddhism isn't about reward and punishment, it's an elucidation of results that occur from skillful and unskillful causes. We should have compassion for evil people as well as good, because doing harm to others is doing harm to oneself, just as we should have compassion for those who were born with bad karma from previous lives.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:56 am

This is actually a misunderstanding of karma. There is not some kind of force in the universe that dishes out rewards and punishments.

There is no permanent ' you' that is going to experience those effects later on. But there is the accumulation of causes which will manifest again as a being, just as the being you are now is the result of previous events.

Consider that you are in fact not the same person that you were when you were a child. Every cell that once lived has died and has been replaced. Your thoughts have changed constantly.

One cell at a time, you have already experienced rebirth many times over.
Yet, there is a sensation of continuity that arises in the mind.
This sense of continuity occurs because the causes of continuity are there.
The effect (of the actions of the body speech and mind) is essentially like digging a hole today that you will fall into later on, because the results resemble their causes.

These causes and effects are not bound by what we regard as the passing of life. The fact that "you will die' all at once some day is not appreciably different than the fact that you have been dying over and over again since the time you were born. the only difference is that this is when the cells stop replicating, because the causes for replication no longer arise.

but the causes of attachment that you have set into motion are still in motion,
and so the cycle of rebirth continues.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Alfredo » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:23 am

Karma is just another pan-Indic supernatural belief for which no good evidence exists. ("Like comes from like" is quite vague, and unfortunately representative of the quality of Buddhist argument in favor of an afterlife.) It is only an "inference" in the sense that "fairies make the flowers grow" is an inference.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby dude » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:01 am

Alfredo wrote:Karma is just another pan-Indic supernatural belief for which no good evidence exists. ("Like comes from like" is quite vague, and unfortunately representative of the quality of Buddhist argument in favor of an afterlife.) It is only an "inference" in the sense that "fairies make the flowers grow" is an inference.


Say what you like, but don't pretend to call what you say Buddhism.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby futerko » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:05 am

Alfredo wrote:Karma is just another pan-Indic supernatural belief for which no good evidence exists. ("Like comes from like" is quite vague, and unfortunately representative of the quality of Buddhist argument in favor of an afterlife.) It is only an "inference" in the sense that "fairies make the flowers grow" is an inference.


I think maybe you have misunderstood what karma is.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Qing Tian » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:09 am

As a pebble is dropped into a pond,
Waves lap at the shore.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:22 am

Alfredo wrote:Karma is just another pan-Indic supernatural belief for which no good evidence exists. ("Like comes from like" is quite vague, and unfortunately representative of the quality of Buddhist argument in favor of an afterlife.) It is only an "inference" in the sense that "fairies make the flowers grow" is an inference.


Your understanding of karma is just that.
However, it doesn't have much to do with the Buddhist explanation.
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:29 am

Alfredo wrote:Karma is just another pan-Indic supernatural belief for which no good evidence exists. ("Like comes from like" is quite vague, and unfortunately representative of the quality of Buddhist argument in favor of an afterlife.) It is only an "inference" in the sense that "fairies make the flowers grow" is an inference.


Serously, you say that "like comes form like" encapsulates Buddhist teaching on Karma, is there a facepalm emoticon;). You also apparently aren't getting the reference to inference of taking what you see directly, and assuming the same principle applies on a larger scale, you know...like we do with many things we believe to be true. The fairies comment is really an obnoxious thing to do on a Buddhist forum, and you are either just stirring the pot or you haven't read much on karma.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Isn't Karma extrapolation?

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:47 am

Your karma is simply your habitual tendencies and propensities which cause a dualistic interaction with experience to arise.
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