Becomeing a buddhist monk in china

[tigerh98]

What do you mean by i have no desire? Delusional what!?ok i will try to meditate and try to make my parents take me to a dharma center

[tigerh98]

Ps.How do i delete a forum i created?is it possible?

[uan]

Ps.How do i delete a forum i created?is it possible?

It's a thread (DW would be a forum). There's no need to delete it. There's nothing to feel embarrassed or badly about. We all hit rough patches. You're doing good. There's no rule that anyone needs to engage with you, read your posts, or anything. But it is good to hear thoughts that go counter to what we think or believe and to be open to them, and for that rory adds a lot of value to this thread.

[tigerh98]

I didnt say it becouse i am embarased i was just curious

[uan]

I didnt say it becouse i am embarased i was just curious

my bad.

[tigerh98]

Its ok bro

[Vidyaraja]

This is of some interest to me as well. To those who say it is impossible or illegal to become a monk in China or stay for extended periods, what do we make of Edward Burger who filmed Amongst White Clouds? In the film stated he was in China for 5 years, and since the first film he has made other films dealing with Buddhist monks in China and is working on another, so I assume he has been there for much longer.

While not of the Buddhist tradition, I came across an interesting story of one Karine Martin, a French scientist who became a Daoist nun in China in the Quanzhen tradition. While it appears that she is now living in Hong Kong, it seems she was ordained in China and also stayed for an extended period of time.

My interest in China, as I've mentioned before, is an appreciation of traditional Chinese culture, a desire to learn Mandarin, and a desire to learn the guqin. Despite the ravages of the Cultural Revolution, I imagine some of this old culture and some serious masters are still to be found. I'd also, like Burger, like to meet some masters of the Zhongnan and cultivate serious practice in an environment like that. Like Karine Martin, I've become further interested in Daoism of the Quanzhen variety (ascetic, renunciant, apophatic meditation, inner alchemy which is quite parallel to kundalini, borrows Buddhist concepts) since after some reflection, I realized that Buddhism's denial of the Self or ultimate ground as well as the 7th precept against music are major sticking points for me. While I suppose a pro-Self view in Buddhism is possible, I think having to defend that position and argue with coreligionists is a waste of energy and a source of confusion, and the 7th precept comes into conflict with the fact that I am a musician and my ambitions to learn guqin. Of course this isn't to say I wouldn't wish to learn under a Buddhist master if I came across one.

So yeah, not to hijack the thread for myself, but what are we to make of those aforementioned figures who stayed in China as monks/nuns? I would have thought such a course was improbable, but it seems those two individuals prove that it is achievable to some degree. If China really is an impossibility, would anyone who is familiar with Taiwan happen to know if Quanzhen monasticism exists there? I hear it is primarily a Mainland thing, but I think I heard somewhere that Quanzhen exists in Taiwan too.

Thanks

[Huseng]

China is a big country. I know a degree of religious activity goes on underground, be it Roman Catholic congregations or Buddhist temples in private homes.

But unless you've already lived there and have connections, don't anticipate getting into that scene.

[Huifeng]

To those who say it is impossible or illegal to become a monk in China or stay for extended periods, what do we make of Edward Burger who filmed Amongst White Clouds? In the film stated he was in China for 5 years, and since the first film he has made other films dealing with Buddhist monks in China and is working on another, so I assume he has been there for much longer.

Hi,

If I recall correctly, I did preface the statement with something along the lines of "from what understand". During my time in China, I spent a bit of time reading the various laws with regard religion and particularly religious education. (This was because I was helping supervise the building of a library within a Buddhist College in Yangzhou, ie. the Jian Zhen Library.) Again, if I recall correctly, there was explicit mention that foreign nationals could not study at such colleges, nor ordain. Even to live in a monastery, by law one cannot simply live in the same quarters as other monastics -- this is related to huji issues, rather a complex matter. (I myself had slightly separate quarters to get around this, and had numerous visits from SARA authorities to check.) I have also known a number of non-Chinese nationals / citizens, who also faced such problems. Some of them had the express permission of the local abbot or Buddhist college head, only to have SARA come in and cite the law, meaning that they could not study / ordain. This is my experience and what I've seen, over 10+ years. I may be wrong, but this is how I understand the situation. It may have recently changed, but I haven't heard anything.

I don't know about Mr. Edward Burger and his filming. Was he ordained as a monastic in China? I can't find any info on the 'net to say that he was. Obviously his being there or filming is a separate matter from the topic at hand. I have also known non-national monastics to stay and practice in the PRoC -- just not study at the colleges or ordain. So, I am not sure how Mr. Burger's situation actually proves that ordination is possible. (Sorry, I haven't seen his movie -- does this include an example of someone who has?) Photos online seem to show a lay cameraman, though I am not sure if this is Burger or not.

And, as I also mentioned, there are always ways around these laws (if there are such laws). It depends on who you are and who you know. Hence my mention of a red envelope -- though really I should have also added, if one has the right guanxi.

Finally, I would be happy to be proved wrong. It would be wonderful to see opportunities to legally ordain, study and train in the Dharma in the PRoC. I'll ask some of my friends who are PRoC monastics if they can fill in any details for me.

As for stay for extended periods -- this is certainly possible. Have done so myself. So, I agree with you there.

~~ Huifeng

[Huifeng]

The Taiwan religious scene has pretty much got some of everything...

http://www.qztao.org/

~~ Huifeng

[Vidyaraja]

China is a big country. I know a degree of religious activity goes on underground, be it Roman Catholic congregations or Buddhist temples in private homes.

But unless you've already lived there and have connections, don't anticipate getting into that scene.

Yeah I hear ya. I was hoping by attempting to teach English there and contacting some people I might be able to start the process of making connections. My only problem is I don't have a degree, so it looks like I will have to rely on some guanxi myself to get the right visas, but I hear English is in such high demand in China that work can be found for non-degree holders outside of Shanghai and Beijing, two cities I don't have much interest in in any case. I guess there's always the option of studying at a Chinese university once my Mandarin gets better in order to remedy my lack of a degree. Though being an autodidact, the notion of shelling out money for an education I am capable of giving myself never sat well with me. I only see value in the piece of paper you get at the end.

To those who say it is impossible or illegal to become a monk in China or stay for extended periods, what do we make of Edward Burger who filmed Amongst White Clouds? In the film stated he was in China for 5 years, and since the first film he has made other films dealing with Buddhist monks in China and is working on another, so I assume he has been there for much longer.

Hi,

If I recall correctly, I did preface the statement with something along the lines of "from what understand". During my time in China, I spent a bit of time reading the various laws with regard religion and particularly religious education. (This was because I was helping supervise the building of a library within a Buddhist College in Yangzhou, ie. the Jian Zhen Library.) Again, if I recall correctly, there was explicit mention that foreign nationals could not study at such colleges, nor ordain. Even to live in a monastery, by law one cannot simply live in the same quarters as other monastics -- this is related to huji issues, rather a complex matter. (I myself had slightly separate quarters to get around this, and had numerous visits from SARA authorities to check.) I have also known a number of non-Chinese nationals / citizens, who also faced such problems. Some of them had the express permission of the local abbot or Buddhist college head, only to have SARA come in and cite the law, meaning that they could not study / ordain. This is my experience and what I've seen, over 10+ years. I may be wrong, but this is how I understand the situation. It may have recently changed, but I haven't heard anything.

I don't know about Mr. Edward Burger and his filming. Was he ordained as a monastic in China? I can't find any info on the 'net to say that he was. Obviously his being there or filming is a separate matter from the topic at hand. I have also known non-national monastics to stay and practice in the PRoC -- just not study at the colleges or ordain. So, I am not sure how Mr. Burger's situation actually proves that ordination is possible. (Sorry, I haven't seen his movie -- does this include an example of someone who has?) Photos online seem to show a lay cameraman, though I am not sure if this is Burger or not.

And, as I also mentioned, there are always ways around these laws (if there are such laws). It depends on who you are and who you know. Hence my mention of a red envelope -- though really I should have also added, if one has the right guanxi.

Finally, I would be happy to be proved wrong. It would be wonderful to see opportunities to legally ordain, study and train in the Dharma in the PRoC. I'll ask some of my friends who are PRoC monastics if they can fill in any details for me.

As for stay for extended periods -- this is certainly possible. Have done so myself. So, I agree with you there.

~~ Huifeng

Hi, thanks for the reply. My point about those two individuals wasn't contentious or directed at you specifically, I was just curious.

You are right though, as far as I know Mr. Burger didn't ordain, but he did essentially live the lifestyle of a monk in the Zhongnan, studying under one master in particular but also learning from the surrounding hermits during his time there. I hear that he has also been involved in Chan monastic institutions in some manner, but again I am not sure how or in what manner. So he doesn't disprove the notion that one cannot ordain in China. The case of Ms. Martin may be different though because, as far as I am aware, she did ordain as a Daoist nun in Shaanxi. I don't know the exact details since aside from a few stories in English, but here is the primary video on her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zco7nLR4BSg

I don't speak or understand Mandarin well enough yet to understand most of what is going on, but it appears as though she is living in a Daoist monastery, wears the Quanzhen habit, and has a Daoist master. So how official her position is or what the legality of it is unbeknownst to me.

Thank you also for the link on Quanzhen Daoism in Taiwan and proving its existence there, I'll keep that in mind for the future

[Huifeng]

[blantant plug]

Come study Buddhism at Fo Guang University here in Taiwan, work on your Mandarin in the process, make some great contacts with those monastic staff and students, which can point you in a direction for practice in a monastery after graduation.

< http://buddhist.fgu.edu.tw/news/news.php?Sn=1 >

[/blantant plug]

~~ Huifeng

[tigerh98]

Im going learn mandarin just to know a 3rd language i dont know in what country im going become a monk

[Huifeng]

老虎九八──加油！

慧峰 合十

[Luke]

You might enjoy this video, Tiger H.

phpBB [video]

...And like everybody else said, start learning Chinese! Then whichever way your life turns out, you could still make friends with some nice Chinese people.

[uan]

I checked with my wife about whether a foreigner could become a monk in China. Her response was, if it's yuanfen 缘分(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuanfen). Applied to many things, especially from a Buddhist perspective, Yuanfen reminds us not to over think things.

[Alfredo]

Ven. Huifeng's suggestion sounds like an excellent opportunity. But in order to get into Fo Kuang University, don't applicants need a high school diploma? And how high do their high school grades have to be? (Tiger has mentioned getting D's.)

[tigerh98]

I have so many things to learn and master:Mandarin chinese/Buddhism/Tai chi or Wing chun/Science

[Qing Tian]

Here's an alternative idea. Go and spend a few months at Wudangshan at a school like this one.

It's not Buddhist but it does give a taste of living in a focussed enivronment, and it's a good introduction to Chinese language and culture.

Just an option.

[tigerh98]

Ok but im probably going become a monk in my country usa