What connects us all when there is no self?

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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby Jikan » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:37 am

What connects us all when there is no self?

"there is no self" is what connects us, in the sense that we are all interconnected to the point we "inter-are."
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:13 am

You have to switch to pure process thinking from entity thinking and you can understand interpenetrating currents that appear they way they do.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby greentara » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:26 am

Takso, "The self refers to one's individuality. Buddhism teaches non-self instead of no-self. Non-self means the non-ownership of self. Buddhism merely sees in the non-existence of a 'fixed' self. This is what the principle of emptiness is all about"
Too much has been written and misunderstood about emptiness, I hope others pay attention because this is a clear explanation!
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby takso » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:10 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
takso wrote:The self refers to one's individuality. Buddhism teaches non-self instead of no-self. Non-self means the non-ownership of self. Buddhism merely sees in the non-existence of a 'fixed' self. This is what the principle of emptiness is all about. Nothing remains unchanging on any given moments. Just like the saying goes, 'Now you see it, now you don't.' Also no two minds are the same. Your past mind is not the same as your present mind and your present mind is not the same as your future mind. The flux of your mind continues on beyond the grave but there is no transmigration of your mind happening.


The Self doesn't refer to individuality or personality there are different words in Pali and Sanskrit for those terms.

the Self described in Buddhism can be found in the Nirvana Sutra Chapter 3

"What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed 'the Self' [atman]. This is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"

[Nirvana sutra] CHAPTER TWELVE: ON THE TATHAGATA-DHATU
“Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! Is there Self in the 25 existences or not?" The Buddha said: "O good man! "Self" means "Tathagatagarbha" [Buddha-Womb, Buddha-Embryo, Buddha-Nature]. Every being has Buddha-Nature. This is the Self. Such Self has, from the very beginning, been under cover of innumerable defilements. That is why man cannot see it. O good man!


Perhaps, you need to notice that the 'self' and the 'Self' denote a different meaning all together.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby takso » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:11 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:
takso wrote:but there is no transmigration of your mind happening.


how come ?

of course you can say that mind does not transmigrate but when we perceive with our mind to be this body, '' i am '' we could say that the mind has transmigrated into this body, and if we are in this delusion when we die, it will happen again.


Well, Buddhism rejects the term ‘transmigration’ or ‘reincarnation’ altogether, but why? Literally, ‘trans-’is a prefix meaning through or across. And transmigration denotes the movement or conveyance from place to place. If we mention that a soul would transmigrate from a body to another new body, it means the same ‘unchanging’ soul does the movement or conveyance throughout the time stream (past, present and future).

However, in the conventional reality, no ‘unchanging’ soul would transmigrate from one body to another and on this pretext, Buddhism upholds the term ‘rebirth’ or ‘re-arising.’ The Buddha sees in no transmigration of all things or matters but instead, in the constant and continuous transformation of all things or matters via the process of permeation (diffusion). Just like the orientation of energy in the cosmos i.e. energy would only transform - to transform is to change, to change is to become, and to become is to reborn. So energy is ever ‘reborn’ all the time in the dependent nature. By understanding well and observing thoroughly into the characteristics of energy, one could gain insight into the nature and its orientation.

In the case of rebirth, an individual soul does not migrate from a physical body into another one. No, it just won’t fit at all. Every individual or thing that exists would not be the same - it could only be in a similar condition e.g. twins are similar but never the same individuals (likewise, no two minds are the same). Every individual is unique respectively and no individuals would be the same even though they do share some sort of the same genes before time. For example, you may have heard in various stories whereby a spirit or ghost has the ability to possess into the body of an individual but it never absolutely overtakes the soul of the possessed individual. This is because one cannot simply exchange the soul at one’s whim and fancy. Even individuals with the most powerful magic charm could not perform this feat. Another example will be the human organ transplant cases, whereby the new recipients need to take immunosuppressive drugs to treat any transplant rejections – live long.

In Buddhism, rebirth refers to evolving consciousness or stream of consciousness of a person (upon death) and the new consciousness arising in the same person (in the new person) is neither identical to, nor entirely different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it. The basic cause for this persistent re-arising of personality is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance; when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases. For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another. In the same way that it depends on the original fire, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next; they are not identical but neither are they completely distinct.

And it is possible for rebirth to take place from a single source into different identities at any various point of time, just like how the genetic lineage works for generations. This is how we explain the destiny of being siblings, being life partners, being close friends in one’s lifetime. Somehow or somewhere before time, the so-called relevant individuals are inherited from the similar source of predecessors. Thus in the present lifetime one has the opportunity to meet and know with the relevant beings and not the other non-relevant beings (as per the law of attraction).

Ultimately, it is the wonder of nature that every created object or thing is neither identical to, nor entirely different from each other. This is how the conventional reality works i.e. not in-linear but in inter-dependence, inter-woven and inter-relation since the dawn of time in a very comprehensive and complicated network of existence. At the end of the day, the inter-connectedness of all things in the nature is what the principle of emptiness is all about - as per the teachings of the Buddha.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby smcj » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:04 am

However, in the conventional reality, no ‘unchanging’ soul would transmigrate from one body to another...

Actually, the fact that the self is empty means that it is infinitely free to change how it manifests, not that there is no continuity, imho. The mistake we make is that we cannot imagine that our beloved ego isn't the foundation and essence of our being, hence if it changes, there must be a break in continuity. Not true.

...and on this pretext, Buddhism upholds the term ‘rebirth’ or ‘re-arising.’

A quote from Stephen Batchelor from an interview in "Buddhist Geeks"

...I certainly have difficulty with the traditional way which Buddhists understand the doctrine of rebirth or reincarnation. It’s the same word in Pali. (emphasis mine)
See more at: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/bg ... vwBjN.dpuf

Sakyamuni taught extensively about karma and reincarnation, no matter how badly that annoys modern people.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:52 am

Son of Buddha wrote:agreed the conventional self ceases to exist and was just a mirage, but the Mirror/Buddha Nature/True Self is still there untouched and pure.

Not at all. The dharma explicitly rejects a self of any kind. Including a True Self. Such notions are nothing but fabricated eternalistic dogma. 
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:54 am

"At no time throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes has there ever been an actual birth. There has only been the appearance of birth. There has never been actual death, only the transformation of appearances like the shift from the dream state to the waking state... throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes there has never been any actual experience of transition or going from one state to another, or any actual experience of being located in some other place. This is analogous to the images in a dream."
- Longchenpa
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby smcj » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:24 am

Not at all. The dharma explicitly rejects a self of any kind. Including a True Self. Such notions are nothing but fabricated eternalistic dogma.

Which Dharma? The 1st turning of the wheel of dharma, with the 4 noble truths? The 2nd turning, with the prajnaparamita sutras? Or the 3rd turning of the wheel of Dharma, which includes the teachings on buddha nature, the alaya 'all base consciousness', and the 'empty of other' schools of buddhist thought?

There is a gamut of views on this subject. You can pick and choose whichever you like. They are all validated through their own texts.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:28 am

smcj wrote:
Not at all. The dharma explicitly rejects a self of any kind. Including a True Self. Such notions are nothing but fabricated eternalistic dogma.

Which Dharma? The 1st turning of the wheel of dharma, with the 4 noble truths? The 2nd turning, with the prajnaparamita sutras? Or the 3rd turning of the wheel of Dharma, which includes the teachings on buddha nature, the alaya 'all base consciousness', and the 'empty of other' schools of buddhist thought?

There is a gamut of views on this subject. You can pick and choose whichever you like. They are all validated through their own texts.

All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:51 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:agreed the conventional self ceases to exist and was just a mirage, but the Mirror/Buddha Nature/True Self is still there untouched and pure.

Not at all. The dharma explicitly rejects a self of any kind. Including a True Self. Such notions are nothing but fabricated eternalistic dogma. 


The third Turning Sutras teach True Self...(I actually quted from them in this thread if you need proof)

What would you say if I told you the 1st turning(Pali canon) and the 3rd turning rejected No Self and considered No Self to lead to suffering?

Would you consider all the proof I posted from the pali canon and third turning sutras to be fabricated eternalist dogma?

Since this is really not the place for this discussion/topic I will send you a PM if you wish.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:13 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:agreed the conventional self ceases to exist and was just a mirage, but the Mirror/Buddha Nature/True Self is still there untouched and pure.

Not at all. The dharma explicitly rejects a self of any kind. Including a True Self. Such notions are nothing but fabricated eternalistic dogma. 


The third Turning Sutras teach True Self...(I actually quted from them in this thread if you need proof)

What would you say if I told you the 1st turning(Pali canon) and the 3rd turning rejected No Self and considered No Self to lead to suffering?

Would you consider all the proof I posted from the pali canon and third turning sutras to be fabricated eternalist dogma?

Since this is really not the place for this discussion/topic I will send you a PM if you wish.

Those who have perverted the Tathāgatagarbha into a 'True Self' will attest that it is thus and so. And I'm sure will be able to produce what they consider proof i.e. anything which allegedly supports their confirmation biases. You, Son of Buddha, are the resident eternalistic dogmatist, this is common knowledge to anyone who regularly frequents this forum.

What would I say if you told me that the first and third turnings reject 'no self'? I would say this is common knowledge. 'No self' is rejected just the same as 'self' and 'Self' are rejected, only a self would believe in 'no self'. This is why the accurate dharma is emptiness.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby smcj » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:23 am

All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong...

...which happen to largely be the basis for the Nyingma and Kagyu schools, as well as some Chinese schools.

You, Son of Buddha, are the resident eternalistic dogmatist, this is common knowledge to anyone who regularly frequents this forum.
Hey, what about me? Don't I count too?
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:37 am

smcj wrote:
All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong...

...which happen to be the basis for the Nyingma and Kagyu schools, as well as some Chinese schools.

You, Son of Buddha, are the resident eternalistic dogmatist, this is common knowledge to anyone who regularly frequents this forum.
Hey, what about me? Don't I count too?

The heart dharma of the Nyingma is Dzogpa Chenpo, which outright refutes Yogācāra and considers gzhan stong to be a post-meditative embellishment at best. The key Nyingmapa adepts of the past all considered early Indian Prasangika Madhyamaka to be their definitive view of choice.

As for the Kagyu, the teachings I'm familiar with (Drikung), do not fall into extreme views.
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:40 am

asunthatneversets
All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong.


These schools are entirely inline with the sutras they uphold (third turning)
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:56 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
asunthatneversets
All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong.


These schools are entirely inline with the sutras they uphold (third turning)

They tend to either (i) err into eternalism, or (ii) hold conditioned dharmas (mind i.e. consciousness) to be unconditioned. I don't doubt that they are entirely in line with certain individual's interpretations of the sūtras they allegedly uphold, but for the reasons given I would have to disagree that those interpretations are accurate.
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:04 am

asunthatneversets
Those who have perverted the Tathāgatagarbha into a 'True Self'


The Tathagatagarbha is the True Self,I havent perverted anything I just quoted what the sutra says it is.

[Nirvana sutra] CHAPTER TWELVE: ON THE TATHAGATA-DHATU “Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! Is there Self in the 25 existences or not?" The Buddha said: "O good man! "Self" means "Tathagatagarbha" [Buddha-Womb, Buddha-Embryo, Buddha-Nature]. Every being has Buddha-Nature. This is the Self. Such Self has, from the very beginning, been under cover of innumerable defilements. That is why man cannot see it. O good man!
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:26 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
asunthatneversets
Those who have perverted the Tathāgatagarbha into a 'True Self'


The Tathagatagarbha is the True Self,I havent perverted anything I just quoted what the sutra says it is.

[Nirvana sutra] CHAPTER TWELVE: ON THE TATHAGATA-DHATU “Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! Is there Self in the 25 existences or not?" The Buddha said: "O good man! "Self" means "Tathagatagarbha" [Buddha-Womb, Buddha-Embryo, Buddha-Nature]. Every being has Buddha-Nature. This is the Self. Such Self has, from the very beginning, been under cover of innumerable defilements. That is why man cannot see it. O good man!

The Tathāgatagarbha in and of itself is an example of upāya and is a provisional pointer for those who lack confidence in their nature. The Tathāgatagarbha being presented as a Self is yet another example of upāya, this is stated specifically by the Buddha.

"Similarly, that Tathāgatagarbha taught in the sutras spoken by the Bhagavan, since the completely pure luminous clear nature is completely pure from the beginning, possessing the thirty two marks, the Bhagavan said it exists inside of the bodies of sentient beings.

When the Bhagavan described that– like an extremely valuable jewel thoroughly wrapped in a soiled cloth, is thoroughly wrapped by cloth of the aggregates, ayatanas and elements, becoming impure by the conceptuality of the thorough conceptuality suppressed by the passion, anger and ignorance – as permanent, stable and eternal, how is the Bhagavan’s teaching this as the Tathāgatagarbha is not similar with as the assertion of self of the non-Buddhists?

Bhagavan, the non-Buddhists make assertion a Self as “A permanent creator, without qualities, pervasive and imperishable”.

The Bhagavan replied:

“Mahamati, my teaching of Tathāgatagarbha is not equivalent with the assertion of the Self of the non-Buddhists.

Mahamati, the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak Sambuddhas, having demonstrated the meaning of the words "emptiness, reality limit, nirvana, non-arisen, signless", etc. as Tathāgatagarbha for the purpose of the immature complete forsaking the perishable abodes, demonstrate the expertiential range of the non-appearing abode of complete non-conceptuality by demonstrating the door of Tathāgatagarbha.

Mahamati, a self should not be perceived as real by Bodhisattva Mahasattvas enlightened in the future or presently.

Mahamati, for example, a potter, makes one mass of atoms of clay into various kinds containers from his hands, craft, a stick, thread and effort.

Mahamati, similarly, although Tathāgatas avoid the nature of conceptual selflessness in dharmas, they also appropriately demonstrate Tathāgatagarbha or demonstrate emptiness by various kinds [of demonstrations] possessing prajñā and skillful means; like a potter, they demonstrate with various enumerations of words and letters. As such, because of that,

Mahamati, the demonstration of Tathāgatagarbha is not similar with the Self demonstrated by the non-Buddhists.

Mahamati, the Tathāgatas as such, in order to guide those grasping to assertions of the Self of the Non-Buddhists, will demonstrate Tathāgatagarbha with the demonstration of Tathāgatagharbha. How else will the sentient beings who have fallen into a conceptual view of a True Self, possess the thought to abide in the three liberations and quickly attain the complete manifestation of Buddha in unsurpassed perfect, complete enlightenment?"
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:27 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
asunthatneversets
All three turnings. The only traditions or views which stray close to eternalism are Yogācāra and gzhan stong.


These schools are entirely inline with the sutras they uphold (third turning)

They tend to either (i) err into eternalism, or (ii) hold conditioned dharmas (mind i.e. consciousness) to be unconditioned. I don't doubt that they are entirely in line with certain individual's interpretations of the sūtras they allegedly uphold, but for the reasons given I would have to disagree that those interpretations are accurate.


sigh..........Start your own thread on the subject
with that said im positive your individual interpretations of the sutras is not in line with what is actually taught in the sutras on the subject matter themselves,which is why you cannot accept that these schools are inline with the respective sutras they uphold.

Peace and Love
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Re: What connects us all when there is no self?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:41 am

Son of Buddha wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
These schools are entirely inline with the sutras they uphold (third turning)

They tend to either (i) err into eternalism, or (ii) hold conditioned dharmas (mind i.e. consciousness) to be unconditioned. I don't doubt that they are entirely in line with certain individual's interpretations of the sūtras they allegedly uphold, but for the reasons given I would have to disagree that those interpretations are accurate.


sigh..........Start your own thread on the subject
with that said im positive your individual interpretations of the sutras is not in line with what is actually taught in the sutras on the subject matter themselves,which is why you cannot accept that these schools are inline with the respective sutras they uphold.

Peace and Love

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. Peace and Love.
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