Emptiness and the two truths

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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krodha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:19 pm

Last edited by krodha on Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:22 pm

A friend and mentor of mine ("Thusness") wrote me this in 2005 (after I sent him a Mahaparinirvana Sutra quotation about the true self). I've come to appreciate and see the truth in his words in recent years.

The Pristine awareness is often mistaken as the 'Self'. It is especially
difficult for one that has intuitively experience the 'Self' to accept
'No-Self'. As I have told you many times that there will come a time when u
will intuitively perceive the 'I' -- the pure sense of Existence but you
must be strong enough to go beyond this experience until the true meaning of
Emptiness becomes clear and thorough. The Pristine Awareness is the
so-called True-Self' but why we do not call it a 'Self' and why Buddhism has
placed so much emphasis on the Emptiness nature? This then is the true
essence of Buddhism. It is needless to stress anything about 'Self' in
Buddhism; there are enough of 'Logies' of the 'I" in Indian Philosophies.
If one wants to know about the experience of 'I AM', go for the Vedas and
Bhagavat Gita. We will not know what Buddha truly taught 2500 years ago if
we buried ourselves in words. Have no doubt that The Dharma Seal is
authentic and not to be confused. :)

When you have experienced the 'Self' and know that its nature is empty, you
will know why to include this idea of a 'Self' into Buddha-Nature is truly
unnecessary and meaningless. True Buddhism is not about eliminating the
'small Self' but cleansing this so called 'True Self' (Atman) with the
wisdom of Emptiness. :)
Last edited by xabir on Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:27 pm

Malcolm also made a similar statement recently:

" What you are suggesting is already found in Samkhya system. I.e. the twenty four tattvas are not the self aka purusha. Since this system was well known to the Buddha, if that's all his insight was, then his insight is pretty trivial. But Buddha's teachings were novel. Why where they novel? They were novel in the fifth century BCE because of his teaching of dependent origination and emptiness. The refutation of an ultimate self is just collateral damage."

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conebeckham
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby conebeckham » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:54 pm

Shentong and Rangtong are both conceptual platforms, but both clearly indicate there is a limit to mind's ability to encompass their "objects"-emptiness and Buddhanature.

Uttaratantrashastra says:
"Since it is subtle, it is not an object of study.
Since it is the absolute, it is not thinkable.
Since it is the profound nature of phenomena,
It is not the realm of meditation by the worldly and such."

Just something to think about, when we become attached to conceptual frameworks.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

invisiblediamond
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:36 pm

Emptiness is nonconceptual. The bodies are just syllables, and the syllables are just bindus. The bindus gave no point. Something g like that.

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Sherab
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Sherab » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:40 pm


krodha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby krodha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:25 pm


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Sherab
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Sherab » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:42 pm


Son of Buddha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:43 pm


Son of Buddha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:55 pm


krodha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby krodha » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:16 am


krodha
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby krodha » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:53 am


xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:48 am


xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:45 am

Last edited by xabir on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:52 am

p.s. upon closer look, I do not agree with the statement of Nirvana as some form of 'ultimate reality'. Many Theravadins have a slightly eternalistic interpretation of the suttas that is not founded/based on the suttas. But even they do not go on to assert Nirvana as Self.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:11 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:28 am

It exists like space, because it has no fathomable characteristics. Nothingness, absence, non-beings are just opposites of things. Both sides are defined by characteristics (or lack of specific characteristics). Tathagatha is free from characteristics, and because we define existence through characteristics, intellectually Tathagatha appears as nonexistent. Samsaric mind is always looking for something to grasp. Liberation from this grasping may come from understanding the emptiness of characteristics.
Say what you think about me

xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:36 am


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Wayfarer
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:14 am

All said and done, nibbana is bliss.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

xabir
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby xabir » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:19 pm

Yes, however it is not a kind of vedana/feeling, the bliss in this context is ease and absence of suffering. It is the ease and bliss of having released all burdens, all bondage, all afflictions, all suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt." etc


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