Emptiness and the two truths

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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:41 pm

i think the liberation is the same but in the teachings it is said that the liberation of an arahant and full enlightenenment, the difference is that bodhisattvas and buddhas have bodhicitta, the wish to benefit and liberate all sentient beings, when arahants are concerned only for theyre own liberation, that makes the difference, maybe, and gives the buddha his powers. or at least that the bodhicitta is the seed of the difference.

i dont know though.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:51 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:I thought liberation is due to wisdom


No, liberation is due to the eradication of afflictions.

I am not sure what you mean by "wisdom". So you mean omniscience? Or do you mean prajñā?

If the former, omniscience is not required for liberation.

If the latter, the prajñā that eradicates the afflictions is exactly the same in an arhat and a buddha.

Okay, let me try again and see if I can make my trend of thought a little clearer.

I was thinking along the line that the liberation of an arhat is liberation from the 12 links of dependent origination. This is done when any link is cut. That cutting is due to a certain wisdom realized.

Since the wisdom of a buddha is far greater than the wisdom of an arhat, there must be a difference in the realization of a buddha compared to an arhat.

This implies that the wisdom realized by a buddha goes further than just cutting the 12 links of dependent origination. It is the difference in knowledge/wisdom of a buddha compared to an arhat that allows the buddha to perform greater 'miraculous' feats than an arhat. So I thought that the difference would come from the buddha having knowledge of all dependencies and not just those of the 12 links of DO. Via the buddha's knowledge/wisdom of all dependencies, the liberation of the buddha is liberation from all dependencies, in contrast to the liberation of an arhat which is only a liberation from the 12 links of DO.


Regarding liberation:

If you cut a rope, does it matter much whether the scissors you are using a six inches long or six feet long?

Regarding realization:

There is certainly a difference between a six inch flame and a six foot flame.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:58 am

Sherab wrote: If liberation means to be free from dependencies, then liberation is non-existence since any form of existence requires dependencies.


Aggi-Vachagotta Sutta wrote:Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.

...any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.


1.

This of course is not an easy passage to understand - all the Suttas with the Wanderer Vachagotta in them address very deep questions - but I think it significant that the Tathagatha is said to be 'deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea'. Not non-existent but 'gone beyond'.

:anjali:
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Emptiness and the two truths

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:55 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
If liberation means


Liberation simply means being free from the operation of afflictions.


I thought liberation defined as being free from the operation of affliction refers to being free from the 12 links of dependent origination, i.e. the liberation of an arhat or a pratekyabuddha. In contrast to that, I thought that the liberation of a buddha would be freedom from all dependencies. Otherwise, there would be no difference in realization between a buddha and an arhat.

Your right Arhats are apart of the 3 mind made bodies and still have defilements that need to be purified,so they are not the same as Buddhas since they still have defilements and are not fully Enlightened. Check the Queen Srimala Sutra it has like an entire chapter on this subject.
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