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how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra appraoch
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:36 pm
by KonchokZoepa
how can non duality be experienced. any good books for beginners in dzogchen that introduce this experience and perception and also i would appreciate anything that helps me progress forward more into non duality.
how does it come about when in meditation there is the fog of perceiver and the perceived in a subconscious level deeply inrooted. like there is no way to remove the perceiver and the perceived duality. i i i me me me. how to transform that into experience of non duality ?
i posted this also on the dzogchen section and im seeking the dzogchen perspective from there and in here ''exploring buddhism'' im more interested in tantra and sutra approach.
thanks for any info / knowledge and help.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:46 pm
by Derek
My take on it is that what people call "experiencing nonduality" is a basic potential of human psychology. It's actually available to everyone, no matter what religion they follow. The Dzogchen perspective is only one possible approach. Does that help? Probably not much!
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:55 pm
by Tongnyid Dorje
KonchokZoepa wrote:how can non duality be experienced. any good books for beginners in dzogchen that introduce this experience and perception and also i would appreciate anything that helps me progress forward more into non duality.
how does it come about when in meditation there is the fog of perceiver and the perceived in a subconscious level deeply inrooted. like there is no way to remove the perceiver and the perceived duality. i i i me me me. how to transform that into experience of non duality ?
i posted this also on the dzogchen section and im seeking the dzogchen perspective from there and in here ''exploring buddhism'' im more interested in tantra and sutra approach.
thanks for any info / knowledge and help.
You have to make perciever to be percieved, not external object. Use awareness to look at itself. As Dudjom RInpoche said on one picture: "Look at this picture, then look at your mind, then look at the one, who is looking. If you can see this, you are excelent one!"
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:30 am
by futerko
The object is in a constant state of flux, your perception of the object is in a two-way relationship, your sense perception is in a constant state of flux, and that is also in a two-way relationship with your free-floating awareness.
So there is no unified object and no unified subject, rather something like a web of interconnected vectors.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:22 pm
by KonchokZoepa
i think that is just your dualistic perception
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:26 pm
by futerko
Recently, I touched something that looked smooth but it felt rough. I took a good long look at the surface, there was nothing on it to make it rough, it was in fact smooth.
It took me a while to realise that it was some rough skin on my fingers that I was experiencing.
The experience was one of unity. There was no immediate perception of a separate object and subject in the experience itself - only retroactively did such a division occur.
So the question should be - how can duality be experienced?
KonchokZoepa wrote:i think that is just your dualistic perception
You've hit the nail on the head here. It is only in thought that such a duality arises.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:34 am
by disjointed
Non-dual is something you get from meditating when the object and subject merge I heard.
I also heard the term tossed around like an old rag used to clean up people's messes.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:48 am
by greentara
disjointed, "Non-dual is something you get from meditating when the object and subject merge I heard"
As I see it there's nothing to get instead you become 'it'. When you stand aloof from people and the world that is the 'dual' state that we are all wallowing in.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:17 pm
by invisiblediamond
KonchokZoepa wrote:how can non duality be experienced. any good books for beginners in dzogchen that introduce this experience and perception and also i would appreciate anything that helps me progress forward more into non duality.
how does it come about when in meditation there is the fog of perceiver and the perceived in a subconscious level deeply inrooted. like there is no way to remove the perceiver and the perceived duality. i i i me me me. how to transform that into experience of non duality ?
i posted this also on the dzogchen section and im seeking the dzogchen perspective from there and in here ''exploring buddhism'' im more interested in tantra and sutra approach.
thanks for any info / knowledge and help.
Comes from the master not a book.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:48 am
by 明安 Myoan
Non-duality only exists in relationship to duality. The closest I've ever come is when I stopped intellectualizing so much and tried to just be curious about whatever's going on. It's really hard not to turn everything into another this/that, thought/no-thought, busy-mind/calm-mind though, so don't be in too much of a hurry
Sorry to be vague and unhelpful, but adopting a specific approach needs a lot of prudence. You don't want to chase your tail by putting what's right under your nose far away under the banner of new knowledge and skills you haven't learned or perfected.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:16 am
by Quiet Heart
You may not like this response, but it is just my opinion anyhow ..... so you are free to reject it if you wish.
You can live your life in a "non duality" view mode if you simply (well it's NOT really a simple thing to do, I'll admit that) if you practice a state of "mindful perception" that does NOT grasp or attach itself to any one view and only that one view.
Such a "mindful perception" is a learned practice, it does not grasp or attach one's perception to any one view or form. Instead it just sees the object as a perception to simply be perceived, existing in it's own right as do all other perceptions in this world as an illusion and not a reality in it's own right.
In other words, each object and perception is but a temporary illusion generated by your mind without any intrinsic reality, essentially "empty".(in Zen terminology).
I realize that sounds like Zen "nonsense talk" .... but if you try to learn to see each object in that "Mindful Perception" mode ... perhaps you can see what I mean.
At least I hope you can.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:03 pm
by KonchokZoepa
quietheart i think i understand you very well. but there is still the boundary between the perceiver and the perceived. even though you can see outer phenomena as empty and lacking true existence its much harder to cut to the root of the misconception of me or i. you can see yourself in everything, in that sense there is no boundaries but it is still dual in its core.
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:36 pm
by futerko
KonchokZoepa wrote:quietheart i think i understand you very well. but there is still the boundary between the perceiver and the perceived. even though you can see outer phenomena as empty and lacking true existence its much harder to cut to the root of the misconception of me or i. you can see yourself in everything, in that sense there is no boundaries but it is still dual in its core.
Surely the boundary you speak of is between our experience of the object and experience of the subject, and as such it is internal to the subject?
Re: how can non duality be experienced ? tantra/sutra apprao
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:00 am
by disjointed
greentara wrote:disjointed, "Non-dual is something you get from meditating when the object and subject merge I heard"
As I see it there's nothing to get instead you become 'it'. When you stand aloof from people and the world that is the 'dual' state that we are all wallowing in.