meditation help needed.

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meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:44 pm

seemingly my biggest problem in meditation is posture. i cant sit in balance. there is tension in my legs no matter how i sit. i like sitting without lotus allthough i can sit in lotus, i think it is lotus even when i look downwards it doesnt look very symmetric. anyway, there is no balance. energy keeps spinning from my spine also the base and then the two other ''foundations'' the point of my knees. and it is seemingly very very difficult to sit still. sometimes this doesnt bother me i still have good focus, but sometimes its just a battle to sit comfortably. also it is hard to relax my mouth and tongue due to the swallowing movement that happens naturally.

any help and experiences given and shared would be greatly appreciated.

how do i solve this obstacle to good meditation.

somehow at some point i always keep coming back to this experience. so what to do.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Jikan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:43 pm

This is an impossible problem to solve on one's own. The best thing you can do is work with someone who understands posture & the human body to help you in a practical way. A competent yoga teacher can do this, for instance.
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:56 pm

This isn't going to be very helpful but hopefully will be informative to a degree. While awake your body is never still in the sense that there is no physical movement. Your body is constructed and ballanced in such a fashion that it is constantly seeking readjustment. This is known as postural sway.

A fairly common mistake with beginners in seated meditation is trying hard to remain rigid and unmoving. As seen above, this is impossible, and so tension mounts which can manifest in various ways such as sudden movements or feelings of energy surges. Learn to relax the body. There are plenty of techniques to do this - have a play until you find one that works for you.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:06 pm

could you link me some useful body relaxing practices for meditation?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:28 pm

I tend to favour Zhan Zhuang and Yi Jin Jing. These exercise contain methods for relaxation, breathing, stretching and postural alignment. The first link is to the beginning of a 10 part series (all available for free on YouTube), and there is a book that is available that explains it in more detail called The Way of Energy by Master Lam (he stars in the video!). The second link is also available as a book/DVD combo here.

My leanings are obviously toward Chinese exercise practices. As a practitioner of Taijiquan and Hua Yue Xing Yi Men the concept of 'soft readiness' - 放 松 Fang Song - is central.

Similarly you could try the exercises in Microcosmic Orbit such as explained here or here. Or exercises such as Embryonic breathing.

One of my personal favourite books is this one by Damo Mitchell. Most Nei Gong exercises have a relaxation component.

Alternatively, as suggested by others, you could seek out a good yoga teacher.

All in all, have fun and try not to get frustrated! :smile: Patience is key.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby justsit » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:51 pm

Make sure you are sitting on a cushion or something firm with your hips slightly higher than your knees. It takes the strain off your back.

Also, it sometimes helps to place the tip of the tongue lightly touching the palate right behind the front teeth. Seems to decrease saliva.
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:59 am

I'd look into exercises like Zhan Zhaung, where you learn to stand "still" and hold your spine in a way that involves minimum muscular tension. Personally, i've found it helps better than anything else for sitting...I have a similar problem though, and a messed up spine. I just make sure I have a ton of stuff under my butt enough that what Justsit mentioned is the case, I have so many cushions people make fun of me lol! Bony butt I guess.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby seeker242 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:00 am

Are you sure that you are using the correct posture to begin with? One of the best ways is to visit a real life meditation teacher so they can inspect your posture first hand and correct it if necessary. I am guessing that your posture is not correct since correct posture is very balanced. It's really really difficult to tell if someone's posture is correct without actually seeing it.
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:54 am

thanks everyone for your messages. i appreciate your help and comments. :)

i havent actually had my meditation posture checked by a lama, i will ask him to check it the next time i see him.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby dimeo » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:53 am

What are you sitting on? Do you use a zafu and zabuton cushions to sit on? Something like that can make a huge difference!

Agreed the stretching helps. Deep breathing as well, to relax the diaphragm.

I often find that when I start to meditate I suddenly then become aware of all the tight muscles and aches I didn't know I had. Which then leads to some time spent stretching and rubbing my tight neck muscles for a bit.

Meditation, stretching and self massage are all good for the health!

also it is hard to relax my mouth and tongue due to the swallowing movement that happens naturally.


Rest the tip of the tongue at the roof of the mouth. This seals off the front of the mouth where saliva is and not trigger the swallowing reflex while you meditate. The breath moves through the nostrils. Your sinuses cant be congested to do this though. But to clear the channels, one 'clearing' technique taught is exhaling strongly through just one nostril, while covering the other. Switch sides and repeat. Then you find you can breath through the nostrils much easier afterwards.
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:25 pm

actually i always hold my tongue on the roof of the mouth or the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth and were the upper teeth meet. but that doesnt stop the swallowing reflex.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Seishin » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:01 pm

Yes, holding the tongue to the top of the mouth (just behind the teeth) reduces saliva but doesn't stop it.

Gassho,
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby Seishin » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:04 pm

Also, being able to get into full lotus doesn't mean you should meditate like it. If you look down and your legs are skewed then most likely your hips and spin are also skewed, even if you think you're nice and straight.

Gassho,
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:56 pm

yeah i dont, and i dont have this unbalance problem all the time, sometimes it is very peaceful and quite still, but sometimes it is very unbalanced and thats when the lotus position helps. usually i sit in a more easygoing posture that feels very natural.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby TaTa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:21 am

Maybe some shamata on the body and breath with énfasis on the relaxing aspect like alan Wallace teaches at the begining of shamata learning. This helped me a lot to set the body in its natural state.

Besides that. Stretching, yoga, good cushin and a propper teacher =)
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby daverupa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:44 pm

A meditation bench can be helpful when cushions and other floor seating arrangements are too rough on the hips or knees or ankles. One with folding legs can easily fit in many backpacks or satchels.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:17 pm

thanks for your message dave but i have found my favourite meditation cushion that feels perfect.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation help needed.

Postby daverupa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:22 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:thanks for your message dave but i have found my favourite meditation cushion that feels perfect.


I'm glad you have found a solution to the problem of the tension in your legs no matter how you sit. I have quite narrow hips, and even with regular hatha yoga I have never had much success in the more traditional cross-legged postures.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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