Psychedelics

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Sherab Dorje
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Vasana wrote:Aloha!
Sorry, should have been a little clearer on what I meant: http://dctendai.blogspot.gr/2010/07/alo ... hical.html
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:42 pm

If the intention behind psychedelic use is to overcome self delusion, attachment to self and experience non-dual states and a taste of ego- dissolution ( which are actually fairly common attributes of higher dosages of psylicobon and especially ayauascha) i don't see the problem. Of course a large majority of psychedleic users are just travelling to these states for the aesthetics, it's just too assumptious to assume there can be no merit from these activitieses.


I think this is really what's being debated.

From a Buddhist perspective, alot of what we do is not motivated by the things we think. For my part..i'm not assuming there is never any merit or that psychedelics could never be used by anyone for good purposes.

I'm saying that people looking for endorsement of their views on psychedelics with a piqued interest in Buddhism on an internet forum probably are not able to see their own motives like they think they can. This is particularly evident if the people have more invested in psychedelic experiences than they do in the more boring, drab parts of Buddhadharma. I never see people asking about "drug dharma" on here asking about ethics, or simple meditation questions etc., they are always asking if the their drugs are compatible - that seems to be the focus. I'm not saying I can see their motives either..it's just that the lack of interest in "normal" Buddhism, combined with the focused interest in psychedelic experience leads me to the conclusion that it's all about more, bigger, cooler, psychedelic experiences than it is interest in Buddhism.

Psychedelics are not a short-cut per-se, but they can drastically speed up fruition of enquiry and yes, realization of dharma too. To say that this is 100% not the case and that they are a hindrance to the path 100% of the time is a big presumption.

Vasana




How do you know they can speed realization of Dharma? shouldn't you at least go talk to a teacher before making assumptions like that on your own?
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Vasana wrote:Aloha!
Sorry, should have been a little clearer on what I meant: http://dctendai.blogspot.gr/2010/07/alo ... hical.html

Agehananda Bharati was great.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔

smcj
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:31 pm

but they can drastically speed up fruition of enquiry and yes, realization of dharma too. To say that this is 100% not the case and that they are a hindrance to the path 100% of the time is a big presumption.

The can provoke inquiry, and they can challenge mundane assumptions. (Huh? My sense of "self" is mutable and therefore not reliable? What is reliable then?) The reason that Buddha Dharma is as popular today as it is, is because of that. However the search and the path require a stable mental basis for proceeding, which continued use of psychedelics prohibits, imho.

In other words; it can get you going on your spiritual search, which is ok, but once you've started with Dharma best to stop getting high.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:34 pm

There is a difference between using pyschedelics for merely 'getting high', and using them to directly experience states and communicate with beings beyond this Bardo.

It is not relevant to everyone's practice to investigate the Bardos while still alive in current incarnation , but for me personally it is and Ayawaska is one such medicine that can provide this ability. I acknowledge that Aya is not essential to everyone as a path for grasping an understanding of the absolute, but it is within my karma to pursue the merits of this medicine.

Ayawaska is known as the vine of souls/vine of the dead , and to assume that it can have no function within dharma practice is a mis-understanding. Ayawaska is not about 'getting high"...

I propose that correct application of Ayawaska from a dharma perspective can actually provide first-hand, direct experience and understanding of the Dying process while still alive in incarnation.

We all know there is a difference between having an intellectual grasping of a concept and an actual first hand experience of a concept/state.
To think this falls out of line of any lineage is fine, but to think it falls out of line of Dharma all together is a mistake.

To many people , insight to the bardo's will not be relevant as it will present it's self at it's own time either way, but for some people, it's an area of interest and practice now.

Meditating on the karmic roles and connections between the plant realm and the interconnected medicinal properties present in nature might be a more accessible route in seeing where i am trying to steer my perspective from.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:39 pm

I propose that correct application of Ayawaska from a dharma perspective can actually provide first hand experience and understanding of the Dying process while still alive in incarnation. To think this falls out of line of any lineage is fine, but to think it falls out of line of Dharma alltogether is a mistake.


How do you know what does anything "from a Dharma perspective"? Do you have a teacher you've asked about this, a Sangha, do you regularly meditate, do you study texts?

If all you've got is an interest in Buddhism, no teacher, no mediation practice outside the trips, and a vested interest in convincing yourself that drugs and Dharma fit, I suggest you might not be capable of figuring how things look "from a Dharma perspective" because you've never even bothered with Dharma independently of all the visions, attempted bardo trips etc. I don't know if that's Dharma practice, it seems more like just trying to fold a little of of what you like about Dharma into what you are already doing.

Also FYI there is something you do every day that many teachers says indicates what your bardo experience will be like - sleep. You don't need anything for the practice, sleep is like a little death that happens every day.

but it is within my karma to pursue the merits of this medicine.


None of us can see our own Karma that clearly - that's why it's important to examine motivations. You keep talking about what Ayawasca "is"..it doesn't matter what it is, it matter what your relationship to it is, and whether that has anything to do with Buddhadharma. I don't know the answer, but so far in the thread you are putting forth alot of theory about the place of hallucinogens within Dharma that you don't seem qualified to make, especially as relatively new person to Buddhism...woudln't it be wiser to just start a practice free of hallucinogens first, then make a decision about this later on?

Meditating on the karmic roles and connections between the plant realm and the interconnected medicinal properties present in nature might be a more accessible route in seeing where i am trying to steer my perspective from.


Again, Karma is something very hard to see for beings in samsara (like us), so part of practice could be said to begin with not assuming you are actually capable of making sound judgements about things like this.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:52 pm

Remember to be mindful about making assumptions and judgements. You seem to have assumed much about me and stated your presumptions before i was able to answer :smile:

For your information, I do meditate,study texts but i have not taken full refuge in sangha just yet, but i will be visiting some Lamas very soon where i will put forth some of my questions and ask for advice.

I do not care if my approach is too syncretic and unconventional to be accepted as 'genuine' by other practitioners. I'm not seeking approval of any kind. I do not mind if my opinions and ideas are met with disagreement either. I have belief in my actions and the route of studying i am taking and i know i'm not learning about any of this to reinforce my own opinions or false sense of self but to learn the art of amazonian medicine while symutatneously studying and practising the concepts found within Buddhism, Nothing more, nothing less.

I recommend checking out the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche for insight and practices realated to sleep,dreaming and bardos etc. If your sleep and dreams are lacking awareness of the dream like nature of the dream, this tends to be the case in the Bardo states aswell.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:02 pm

Vasana wrote:Remember to be mindful about making assumptions and judgements. You seem to have assumed much about me and stated your presumptions before i was able to answer :smile:

For your information, I do meditate,study texts but i have not taken full refuge in sangha just yet, but i will be visiting some Lamas very soon where i will put forth some of my questions and ask for advice.

I do not care if my approach is too syncretic and unconventional to be accepted as 'genuine' by other practitioners. I'm not seeking approval of any kind. I do not mind if my opinions and ideas are met with disagreement either. I have belief in my actions and the route of studying i am taking and i know i'm not learning about any of this to reinforce my own opinions or false sense of self but to learn the art of amazonian medicine while symutatneously studying and practising the concepts found within Buddhism, Nothing more, nothing less.

I recommend checking out the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche for insight and practices realated to sleep,dreaming and bardos etc. If your sleep and dreams are lacking awareness of the dream like nature of the dream, this tends to be the case in the Bardo states aswell.


I have the book, it's great.

I do not care if my approach is too syncretic and unconventional to be accepted as 'genuine' by other practitioners. I'm not seeking approval of any kind. I do not mind if my opinions and ideas are met with disagreement either. I have belief in my actions and the route of studying i am taking and i know i'm not learning about any of this to reinforce my own opinions or false sense of self but to learn the art of amazonian medicine while symutatneously studying and practising the concepts found within Buddhism, Nothing more, nothing less.



It's not really about genuine vs. not genuine, it's just about whether the approach will actually lead you to the same stuff as "normal" Dharma practice will, or whether it will lead in a bad or unproductive direction. Some of the stuff Greg has said in particular (about not chasing experiences) seems like really good advice to me on that count...probably a better area to focus on than whether or not psychedelics fit with Dharma. I'm gonna hazard an offhand guess that if/when you actually speak to a teacher, the advice will be something along those lines - it's advice that you see repeated over and over again - presumably because it's so important. I could certainly be wrong though.

That said, i wish you the best of luck whereever this stuff takes you.
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits

Vasana
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:11 pm

Of course it will lead to the same stuff as 'normal' dharma practice.That's the point. I intend to merge the teachings and understandings of both because i have had tasters of both and i can sense that both are equally valid ways of conducting behavior , both culitvate bodhichitta and compassion and both have specific insights and views that are valid and useful in the skillfull and mindful navigation of Samsara and Beyond.

There are intricate details of Samsara and most likely Non-dual states an Ayawaska shaman could relay to a Lama, and intricate details a Lama could relay to a shaman. Both (when genuine) have very similar roles when it comes to alleviating suffering of sentient beings.

I hope to see an emerging dialogue between these two cultures because i whole heartedly know with all my heart that the two perspectives and practices will be of tremendous merit and use to each other.

Thank you for the wishes, i wish all the best for you too.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:15 pm

There is a difference between using pyschedelics for merely 'getting high', and using them to directly experience states and communicate with beings beyond this Bardo.

No, there isn't.

In case it hasn't become apparent to you, virtually all the posters on this are people that have tripped, some extensively. Been there, done that. It is a dead end, it goes nowhere. Millions and millions of people have tried tens or hundreds of millions of times to make something of it, and all have come up empty handed at best, and severely damaged at worst.

But good luck anyway!
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN

Vasana
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:17 pm

You cannot say "no there isn't" as a definitive statment.

I'm sure you're aware that it is the intention behind an action that indicates whether an action is virtuous or non-virtuous.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:26 pm

Vasana wrote:Of course it will lead to the same stuff as 'normal' dharma practice.That's the point. I intend to merge the teachings and understandings of both because i have had tasters of both and i can sense that both are equally valid ways of conducting behavior , both culitvate bodhichitta and compassion and both have specific insights and views that are valid and useful in the skillfull and mindful navigation of Samsara and Beyond.

There are intricate details of Samsara and most likely Non-dual states an Ayawaska shaman could relay to a Lama, and intricate details a Lama could relay to a shaman. Both (when genuine) have very similar roles when it comes to alleviating suffering of sentient beings.

I hope to see an emerging dialogue between these two cultures because i whole heartedly know with all my heart that the two perspectives and practices will be of tremendous merit and use to each other.

Thank you for the wishes, i wish all the best for you too.



Right, so..in fact you are chasing new, interesting, different experiences that's the point, and again it's something that Buddhist teachings pretty much across the board caution against - for good reasons.

m sure you're aware that it is the intention behind the action that indicates whether the action is virtuous or non-virtuous.


Problem here is alot of times people don't know their own intentions, unless you can clearly see your own storehouse consciousness or something, your own perception of your intention, and the causasl chain behind your actions is fallible - that's why Dharma is (usually at least) somewhat systematic. If we just knew what to do then we could just do it without help, Dharma wouldn't really be necessary. That's why teachers always stress the importance of having the base of Hinayana teachings etc., we have to somewhat let the teaching determine our behavior when in doubt..heck, that's part of taking refuge, admitting that you cannot steer the ship to somewhere good entirely by yourself.

It's not a savory idea to modern sensibilities, in fact it's diametrically opposed to the kind of individual xpression that defines the modern syncretic "new age' movement...but IMO there are some real good reasons for considering it.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:34 pm

I'm not chasing these experiences. The reason i have had these paths present themselves to me is that i reguarly see spirits of the deceased on the astral plane. I didn't chase these experiences and set out to have them, rather they just seemed to happen symutaneously.

As for the ayawaska, yes ,i pursuited that experience, and in return, i felt non dual states and a pre-birth state as well as providing space to experience the profound suffering of the world to provide perspective and spark up the dormant store-house of compassion.

The reason i am here is to bring more discipline to my approaches. To watch and examine my intent from moment to moment. I just know that what i learn here will be applicable and useful when exploring beyond the Bardo with the Amazonian medicines and the amazonian perspective of inner and outer cosmology.

Syncreticism isn't exactly a stranger within the generally accepted confounds of Buddhism either. We know of inter-dependence. All i'm saying is that there may be some Buddha-Nature insight to be found in the Amazon and not just India and Tibet :shrug:

(of course that applies to anywhere in the world, but i feel the Amazon,India & Tibet are three areas of the world acting as powerful catalysts for a more mindful existence and harmonic state of living on this planet)
Last edited by Vasana on Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smcj
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:37 pm

Vasana wrote:You cannot say "no there isn't" as a definitive statment.

It is 2013. You are decades late to the party, a newbie. The experiment has already been done millions and millions of times with the same result, by everybody from Harvard PhD.s to the man on the street.

But don't take my word for it, knock your socks off!
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN

Vasana
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:40 pm

It's not my place to judge your judgements.

You seem pretty fixed in your opinion so you're free to hold on to that.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:49 pm

...there may be some Buddha-Nature insight to be found...

If you are looking to find Buddha-Nature insights, they are always of the nature of mind. It is eternal and unchanging. The contents of mind, such as psychedelic experiences, are temporary variations on samsara. You'll know when you experience your Buddha Nature when you find the part of your mind that is unaffected by psychedelics, like when Ram Dass gave his guru 900 micrograms of LSD and nothing happened.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:02 pm

I agree ^

However, To assume psychedelics can not instigate non-dual states of awareness is also false.Doesnt happen to most people, but it does happen. Of course that doesnt mean to suggest that they are required, more so they can provide a person the opportunity to see the mind and ego for what it truly is.

You must have heard of the phrase "ego-death" as sometimes bought on by psychedelics. Surely from that point of view you may be able to see how they can be of some use along the path. I'm not saying that these things are the path it's self as maharishi was hinting to Ram dass.Not the final goal or anything, more so tools along the way to help tap into the transcendental and unchanging nature of the awareness we are trying to cultivate 'beyond' Samsaric perception.

I'm not promoting usage,attachment etc. But used with intent to heal and alleviate some kind of suffering ( as is usually the case with Ayauascha) it's not a source of obscuration, rather a Samsaric tool used by beings in Samsara to lessen the grips of the mind on it's self and to provide healing to more grosser dysfunctions and illness's present within the mind and body.

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Vasana » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:06 pm


Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:08 pm

What exactly is your defintion of a "non dual state", and in what way are these ayawasca visions a non-dual state?
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Sherab Dorje
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:11 pm

Amazonian shamans do not need Buddhism. They don't need Buddhism because their -ism is a complete system (in their view) anyway. The Ayawaska thing sells well in the western "spiritual" market, so they use their barker to cash in. But the other 99.999999% of their tradition tends to get lost in the psychedelic haze.

Buddhists do not need Amazonian shamanism. They don't need Amazonian shamanism because their -ism is a complete system (in their view) anyway. The dream yoga thing sells well in the western "spiritual" market, so they use their barker to cash in. But the other 99.999999% of their tradition gets lost in the dreamlike haze.

Then along comes "Vasana". "Vasana" has obviously dabbled in Amazonian shamanism but has not really looked into it in any depth, 'cause if he had, he wouldn't need to try to import Buddhism into it. He's read a few books on Buddhism and can throw around terms like "bardo" or Dharma", but obviously he has no grounding in the basics 'cause he would know that intoxicants are a no-no. But hell, he likes intoxicants, he fancies himself a bit of an astralnaut, and Buddhist tantra is sooooo in right now... He wants to have his ayawaska and eat it too. :tongue:

And this is where all the problems begin. You see a car, with an automatic transmission, has two pedals: an accelerator and a brake. Now the accelerator is cool if you want to speed up. It does the job perfectly. And the brake, well that's cool of you want to slow down. Works fine. But pressing both at the same time? Nope. Not happening. Waste of time.

At some point in time "Vasana" is going to have to make a choice: accelerate or slow down. When he finally makes that decision then everything will be just fine. Until that point in time, he'll just be wasting his precious human existence.
:namaste:
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